Season 3 kicks off with our conversation with Jack Verzuh. Co-hosted by Tulsa Douglas and Luisa Neves.
In this episode, Jack shares his recent experiences with ultimate (including his decisions to both step away from and return to club ultimate), the difficulties of being a youth player in the spotlight, and his excitement for the upcoming club season with Seattle BFG. We also reflect on the importance of creating spaces in which the people who contribute to those spaces can show up with their whole selves, and be seen for the full extent of their identities.
This is the first episode of Season 3 of Share the Air. To listen to previous guests, check out our episodes wherever you get your podcasts. If you want to hear even more of us, check out our Patreon page, where you can listen to bonus content every two weeks, as well as access other cool benefits! We already have a number of bonus episode out, filled with new interviews, thoughtful discussions, great stories, and extra content that we couldn't fit into the original episodes. Also, if you want to rep some sweet Share the Air gear, check out our new store, courtesy of VC Ultimate! For more information on upcoming episodes, follow us on our socials: Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook.
Share the Air is hosted by Tulsa Douglas and Luisa Neves. It is planned, edited, and produced by Tulsa Douglas, Luisa Neves, and Tim Bobrowski. Share the Air's music is by Grey Devlin and Christopher Hernandez. Share the Air is sponsored by the National Ultimate Training Camp and V Ultimate.
Tulsa: We're back. We're back for season three.
Luisa: Season three of Share the Air.
Tulsa: Yeah. We're back with a slightly unconventional or just different format than previous seasons. We're not going to post an episode every week for a number of weeks in a row. We're gonna try and do a little more spread out, maybe some more time in between, not as consistent. Just to make it possible for us to do this season with everything else that
Luisa: Mm-hmm. Totally. I think everyone is well aware that the club season is now underway, but we still wanna be putting out episodes and having these conversations. And we already have a couple of great conversations lined up. We're just exploring new episode formats and new things to try. Some of it based on feedback from our listeners that we got in our off season break. And part of that is giving us a little bit more time to develop and have conversations with more folks. So hopefully this time helps us do that.
Tulsa: Yeah. So if you have anyone you want us to talk to this season, we have linked in all of our social media platforms a guest nomination form that you could go and fill out and we'll check that and hopefully get the voices that you wanna hear on here.
Luisa: Yeah, you can nominate yourself, nominate a teammate, a person you respect in the community. The more voices that we can get on the show, the better. And we only know so many people, so we appreciate our listeners letting us know who we should talk to.
Tulsa: Yes. And we did a bonus episode kind of about kicking off the club season and where both of our teams are at. So if you wanna check that out, you can do that on our Patreon, but Brute Squad, my team, has our first tournament this weekend and Lu's team XIST, had their first tournament. So we, we have a bonus episode over there about that, but that's also partly why we're spacing things out more is cuz we're quite busy.
Luisa: With that, the first conversation that we have lined up for this new season is Jack Verzuh and we're super excited to share that conversation with you all. So please enjoy.
Today we're joined by Jack Verzuh, for our first conversation of season three. Jack began playing ultimate in Seattle, where he attended Lakeside high school and won both Washington state and Western regional titles. During college Jack played for Dartmouth Daybreak, formerly known as Princess Layout, which one backed back D-I college national championships in 2017 and 2018. During his last year at Dartmouth in 2019, Jack won the Callahan Award. He has also represented the US on multiple different youth national teams, winning two gold and two silver medals. Jack was the youngest player to ever make Seattle Riot and played with them for five club seasons and won a world club title with them in 2018. This summer, Jack is rostered with the mixed club team, Seattle BFG. Outside of ultimate, Jack teaches history at the Lakeside school in Seattle. Jack, welcome to Share the Air.
Jack Verzuh: Thanks for having me. I'm excited to be here.
Luisa: So we have a lot of guests that come on the show in a number of different ways. We've had people get recommended. We've reached out to people a lot, especially when we were first starting out. In your case, you listened to a couple of our previous episodes, and then you reached out to us about coming on for your own episode. Do you wanna share why that was?
Jack Verzuh: Yeah, totally. So. As was kind of mentioned in the, the bio introduction, the beginning, I have switched from playing in the women's division where I played for a long time. And this season for the first time playing in a, a male matching roster spot on a mixed team. And yeah, this change is, is really you know, personally exciting, for me. And also, I kind of feel aware of the way that throughout my ultimate career I've kind of like been in the public eye. And so even if my personal preference might be to just sort of, you know, slip kind of quietly between divisions and it kind of felt like for a number of reasons that maybe that was not gonna be possible. And that, as I like come back to the ultimate scene. wanting to feel like I'm speaking for myself and like talking about my own experiences and from my own perspective and and not to have other people kind of speak, for me, or to, just sort of thinking about the way that, kind of traditional media outlets that are trying to like get likes or views or things like that are they're sort of incentivized to like, have hot takes or they're incentivized to kind of sensationalize things. And particularly thinking about the way that there's a history in the United States of, trans folks in particular being like sensationalized by media outlets is that it feels like really important to me to speak for myself. And then particularly, knowing Tulsa and and having been teammates in the past having a conversation and and sharing my experience with somebody that I already know and already have a relationship with felt like a really awesome opportunity.
Tulsa: I think, well, one thank you for reaching out to us and we're definitely want to share this space and make space for whatever you wanna talk about. And I think kind of what you said about, like, it sounds like maybe your ideal situation, you would just play in a male matching spot this year and. Just focus on playing and all that. kind of feels like, what would it take to get there so that you don't have to think about how your story gets told and all of that. And it just, yeah, I guess I'm just thinking about like, that feels like potentially a goal to aim for. I don't know. What do you think?
Jack Verzuh: Potentially. Hmm. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think that the first thing that comes to mind is the fact that, to my knowledge, I can't think of any other trans men that are playing elite ultimate like that are competing at the, at the highest levels of the sport. And so in this moment, and this is, I also kind of mentioned this. We, we were originally talking, but it's kind of like visibility is a double edged sword, where on the one hand. it feels like a really incredible opportunity and like a gift to me to be able to be somebody who's like visible and who's holding, you know, this identity of being a trans man really proudly. And then on the other hand it does, I have felt at times, like it's just a totally crushing weight, you know? And then I don't wanna speak for this whole group. I don't wanna like represent trans people or trans, I don't wanna represent, I just wanna represent myself, you know? And so I feel like there's like this just constant balancing act in that sense.
Tulsa: Mm-hmm yeah, double edge sword is a good analogy.
Luisa: Yeah, maybe before we get deeper into this conversation We'll touch on this other point of naming that Tulsa and I are both cis women. And you've named even, I think, a second piece of us having a conversation like this is that you have a relationship with Tulsa. You guys have had conversation and you've had a little bit of trust built. Jack, you and I are sort of meeting for the first time. So that in addition to the identities that Tulsa and I have just wanna acknowledge that this conversation can be additional labor for you in having a conversation with cis folks about trans issues and your identity as a trans person. So do you wanna share your experience with this in having some of these conversations and maybe lay any sort of ground rules for this conversation?
Jack Verzuh: Yeah, totally. Yeah, I appreciate naming that and for all of us to sort of like be, you know, intentional about how we're entering this conversation and I just have been reflecting on The kind of act of asking questions and how like, asking questions is an important part of most conversations, but also like relationship building and asking people about their experiences and asking them how they're doing. And you care about somebody, you ask 'em questions. And and so there's that side of, of asking questions. And then also I think that a lot of trans people get invasive or overly personal questions right, often that are like really not about relationship building.
They're about pushing people apart, ultimately. , you know, and I'm really excited to be in, conversation with you both and and have it not feel like, it's not like a interrogation, right? It's just a conversation between, people who are like wanna build relationship and wanna know more about each other. And that, keeping questions focused on like, like centered on relationship, right? Or like centered on the experience of the, of the, person who's answering the question, rather than when people ask questions that are centered on their own curiosity or their own ignorance. That those kind of questions are not about relationship building. and and the other kind of thing, I think that I was thinking about coming in this conversation is around giving definitions of terms or words or things like that and I think that there's like kind of a false narrative that exists that queer identities and words are like too hard to understand. People are like, oh, I, those pronouns are so complicated or those, I can't remember all the letters of the alphabet. Like people who say stuff like that, right? I'm manifesting the world that I wanna live in where the expectation is that it's not too complicated.
And the expectation is that people just learn the things so they can give people kind of basic respect. And so along those lines, not, you know, necessarily defining things, if it could be Googled, and just like having a culture of if, if you're like, oh, I don't know what, what cisgender means. I'm not gonna define it. Somebody should go Google that. And so that's sort of, a norm that I had in mind coming into this conversation as.
Tulsa: Yeah, I think that's great because I think it puts the onus of learning on the person who doesn't know to go and find for themselves rather than keep relying on other people to explain it to them. Yeah. And I also think the guidance of reflecting on a question you're going to ask is, what is the goal of this relationship building or is this for my own curiosity is a great guideline. Mm-hmm so thanks for sharing those. Mm-hmm
Luisa: I wanted to maybe circle back to something that you mentioned earlier around being, I think, being in the spotlight and like how that's, that sort of being put on you is part of the reason why you're you've reached out to have this conversation with us. And I'm, I am curious, and I think this is maybe a question for the, both of you is like what it was maybe like to have this sort of spotlight put on you and your ultimate career at pretty young ages. I think you, both of you were these college stars what was that like? I think being in this media spotlight, where it now feels like people deserve to know or have a right to know your stories and what you're currently doing with your careers and with ultimate.
Jack Verzuh: That's a great
Luisa: question.
Jack Verzuh: Yeah. I mean, I think kind of reflecting back and and like you said, I feel like I was relatively young when I felt like there was kind of media attention on my, my frisbee career. And I feel like it was hard and it was hard on me and I feel like I didn't always handle it that well. And I think that there's something that like, particularly for like a young person, who's in high school something about having positive attention on social media, and like strangers liking things or saying, oh, you're so awesome. Or whatever, like it, You know, fills your teenage brain with all kinds of good, you know, neurochemicals, right? And this is, I feel like why, social media is so attractive in general particularly for teenagers. But then like the, the kind of downside of that is that you're only real, really able to like, be a one dimensional version of yourself when other people are consuming you, right?
They're like trying to consume media about you or words or ideas or thoughts about you. And so I, I think that I, I didn't really realize for a while, what that would take away from like my own experience and that I think that for a while I didn't really yet fully understand the ways that that was affecting me and the knowledge that total strangers were gonna like comment on my performance in a game. If I was, like playing in a high level game and the kind of pressures that put on me and the ways that, I think at times that I stopped losing my focus on being with my, myself and being with my teammates and just being like, kind of there.
And yeah, and I've always been like a relatively private person. And so right now, I don't really use you know, social media at all. and and I feel like the older that I've gotten, the more that I kind of understand how the, perceptions of strangers, how like being invested in that has a really negative effect on me, you know? And then I'm just like trying to live my life, not invested at all in what, like, strangers think about me, you know? And instead to like invest in, in my real life relationships. But I, I do think that it's a. Particularly for a young person, it can be a hard pressure to just be handed right? And not really know what to do with.
Luisa: Mm-hmm.
Tulsa: Yeah. And I feel like there's a little bit of, I've felt more conversation around how ultimate players should be branding themselves and using their social media to build this image as a athlete and especially pushed around like semipro now. And yeah, I feel like I'm good. I don't know. I, I, I agree with you. I feel like it's one dimensional in terms of what you see from others. And then I think potentially a tendency to kind of fit yourself into that when you're trying to self promote and yeah, I definitely am uncomfortable with it and have not kind of like stepped into it because I have no idea what to do, but I, I also think my experience was a little different than yours, Jack, in that I played D-III and it was like few years back. So before a lot of coverage my senior year, I think was the first year that we actually had any games streamed from College Nationals. So I think I like just barely made it through, which was great. But I, I do remember, I think Ultiworld wrote a couple articles and they were about me instead of about my team. And I think in all of my interviews, I was just trying to make it completely about my team. And I imagined the reporter was a little bit frustrated cuz yeah, they were like going for an individual profile. But to me it was a lot easier when I did have to speak to really try and focus on my team center, my team and like remind myself that that's why I was there. I mean, I couldn't have been there by myself, so yeah.
Luisa: So Tulsa, you said that some of that attention was difficult because it sort of detracted from the efforts that you felt your team put in to all of that success that the media was following. For either of you, did you feel that some of that attention affected your relationship with ultimate?
Tulsa: I can start. I think one thing that I have been and as I mentioned, I'm in this grad program for sport and exercise psychology. So it's a little more performance related, but I do think one thing that comes from increased kind of media coverage and especially in a certain, focusing on stats way. Cause I feel like I've definitely had to name that. and I think in, in semi-pro too, there's a push of highlighting stats and goals and assists and blocks and stuff. And I feel naming that and recognizing that's not gonna help me play well and perform well for my team. thinking about that, focusing on any of that has been helpful. And also I feel like it's a, it's a common trap that people can potentially fall into.
Jack Verzuh: I think for me that in my kind of first couple years, playing club and stuff like that, that I kind of learned to just like, tune it out. And I remember one year on Riot, there was this discussion about boycoting the semifinals or not. because there was like, maybe ESPN was doing the men's semifinals, but only one of the women's division semifinals. And people were like, maybe we should just be like, no, we won't play for you if you're not gonna make it equal to USAU. And I just remember my teammate Surge being like, listen, I don't care about the cameras. Let's just go play in a parking lot. I don't, like, I literally not like a literal parking lot, but like, that was like the sentiment. And I feel like after my first couple years of playing where it was like, wow, it's so exciting to play in front of the cameras and stuff like that. I feel like that was more of the attitude that I had, that I was like, you know, whether we're playing the semifinals or, or whatever, if we're all on board, this is like an important game that that's kind of all that matters. But I feel like in the last couple years that I was playing in the women's division, I did really start to feel the media attention and filmed games and announcers and stuff was affecting me more because people started to like, not use my pronouns, even when I had told them what my pronouns were. That knowledge that people were gonna not use my pronouns, that people were gonna probably say things that I would feel were uncomfortable or not representing me the way I wanna be represented that I really felt like that did begin to detract from my actual ability to play ultimate and just focus on that.
Tulsa: Yeah, I remember that article you wrote... what was the name of it? Like USAU don't use don't if you're not...
Jack Verzuh: ..You, if...
Tulsa: ...don't.
Jack Verzuh: Yeah. "If You Can't Print My Pronouns Then Don't Use My Face."
Tulsa: yeah.
Luisa: Where was writing that article and publicly making that statement, where was that in your journey with figuring out your place in ultimate, figuring out what ultimate was worth to you. And then the eventual decision to sort of step away from playing in the women's division.
Jack Verzuh: Yeah, that's a good question. I mean, I think that in that moment I was like going into, playing College Nationals for a fourth time. And that as I kind of became, you know, as I, as Dartmouth had a lot of success in the previous years, and I felt like people were like using my image a lot or like talking about me and they were like recaps and essentially profiting from my image and my play and stuff like that, as people paid to watch these stream games that the kind of recognition of that. And then in the moment right before College Nationals, there was some email threads about like, I was like both collaborating with people I knew on other teams about them wanting to have pronouns printed and then USAU coming back and being like, you know, giving this very like, demeaning, oh, well you can't, you're not old enough to have your pronouns printed.
And I'm like, you know, 22 years old, I'm like, I, I, I know exactly what I want and I want my pronouns put next to my name because people are gonna misgender me. And this is like one way to like, make that happen a little bit less. So I feel like in that moment, when I wrote that article, it very much felt like this last minute, it was like right before the tournament. And I was like, cuz you, as you kind of just gotten back to us with this statement and. So I was like pretty angry in that moment. And it's interesting to kind of look back because I do think that a lot of people like read that article and that it did make a big impact in some ways.
But that I like often don't really like, do things that have anger. I'm like a very measured person and in general, very thoughtful and don't usually make quick moves and say things out of anger. and and I think that reflecting on, on the article, I, you know, I think I, I don't regret posting or anything, but I think that it, in some ways it made it easy to scapegoat, USAU and be like, oh, like these people or this organization, they are not respecting trans athletes or queer and gender nonconforming athletes. When I think what that like allows people to like, kind of take some of the onus off of themselves for like, what am I doing to make this a more inclusive environment for every to play in and to be like, oh yeah, they're the worst, you know? So I feel like that's kind of one reflection I have about that article, but I also, after I wrote it, I actually heard from a lot of people, like my parents were at the, at the tournament and my mom said that like, somebody came up to her and was telling her that they felt more comfortable in this space having read that as a gender nonconforming person. And that I heard from some people who were like teachers who were showing with their class and they had kids in their class who were use they, them pronouns and stuff like that. And I do think that in the last couple of years, I feel like using they/them pronouns or, or really people's chosen pronouns on broadcasts is much more common than it was.
And I remember that right before I think it was before 2019. One of the people who commentates for ESPN was that calling a lot of the top players and called me and at one point said like, oh, I wasn't sure if I was gonna use they then pronouns. Cause it seems too hard for people to understand and I didn't want it to be confusing. And I was just like, okay, like, I don't know. So, but, but I do. So I feel like stuff like that, oh, it's like too much. It's, it's too hard. And I feel like we actually have moved quite far in the last however many years. And I don't know, watching some of the Western Ultimate League broadcasts this last year. I was like, wow, this is like, you know, depends on the commentator still. But some commentators like doing an awesome job and. Yeah, so, so that's sort of my, my reflections on, on that kind of like moment in that article, but I, I do think that as my reflections on like my decision to ultimately leave the, the women's division was that I played that college season 2019.
Then I played the club season in 2019. And by the end of the like 2019 club season, I was just like, so totally drained from like being in a, in a place where I felt like in order to like, play on Riot and to play in this division that I kind of need to check my transness at the door and leave that part of me out of it. And that people wanted to be my teammate and wanted to compete with me, but they didn't wanna like, see that part of me or like do the work to, actually show me that they respected and saw and welcomed my, my whole kind of experience. And I, it was just kind of everything from, teammates still messing up my pronouns to like observers, always being like, ladies tend to pull, which don't even get me started, but I feel like anyway, but I feel it was just like kind of this like constant, draining on me I was just like so exhausted by the end of that season.
And that was a big part of why having a break in 2020, I was like, wow, being in other spaces, whether it's like at work or like, with friends or whatever the situation is where people like are gendering me correctly. And it's not a big deal. I was like, wow. This is like how I deserve to be treated all the time. And this is like way better for me. And that as much as I love ultimate and as much as I love playing on Riot, I cannot go back to feeling that way all the time.
Tulsa: So 2020 everyone had a season off and then 2021, you didn't play club. Correct. Okay. Um, yeah. Do you wanna talk a little bit about the decision to take that season off?
Jack Verzuh: Yeah. So in, 2020, I thought that I was gonna captain Riot. And so we had like zoom meetings and stuff like that, but we didn't, you know, practice or anything like that. And then coming in 2021, I was still on board to captain and just like, was also feeling like this really strong pull that I needed more space. And that actually, it had felt really nice to not always be feeling like I was being put in a position where I wasn't being seen by people, or I was worried that people were gonna like, not use my pronouns or like in other ways, misgender me and yeah, in like 2020 and 2021, I like got really into trail running and I was enjoying that and it felt nice to just like, be really removed. And so I, I kind of ultimately decided that even though like for a long time, Riot had kind of been the most important community in my life and that. I made the team when I was 18, I had just finished high school. And it was like, I had just suddenly gotten 26 siblings and you know, big siblings, they were gonna like take care of me.
And I was like, and and this team has like, really been the most important defining ommunity in my life throughout the time that I was on the team. And the idea of losing that felt so hard and scary that I felt kind of unable to face that for a long time, even earlier on when I was like, dang, you know, I'm trying to recognize that playing them as a vision is like hard for me in these ways, but I can't not play for Riot because I would be losing so much. But eventually in 2021, it was just like the need to have more space and not be constrained by, playing in a women matching spot, a female matching spot on a team. That like pull was strong enough that I was like, I just need space to decide and like, not be so afraid of losing this community that I can't really check in with myself. Yeah, so I didn't play club last year. And that like really gave me a good opportunity to be like, what is actually the best like version of my life that I could possibly live, with no kind of constraints on it? And to like center that and then afterwards to be like, and does sports fit into that? and and to kind of go at it from that, from that angle.
Tulsa: I did see somewhere on some page that you ran a 50k race.
Jack Verzuh: That's right. Yeah. I feel like some people, when ultimate stopped were like, I'm gonna go play disc golf. And I feel like I went like the opposite direction. I'm just gonna run. Let's gonna all these frisbees out the way. Yeah. So I got into trail running. I did two different 50Ks while I was away from ultimate, which was super fun. Yeah. But I missed being on a team a lot. I feel like the like relationship of being someone's teammate has been like such an important part of my life, that it was like really hard to adjust to not having those relationships. I really missed that. Yeah.
Tulsa: So, yeah. So then this year comes around and it sounds like in your reflection, ultimate and teammates were still important. Yeah.
Jack Verzuh: Yeah. Yeah. I, I think that I kind of like had them to make the decision, for me first that I wanted to like start taking testosterone and that was a really personal decision it was so much bigger than sports for me. And so I feel like I made that decision last summer and it's been awesome. And it was like totally the right thing. And then from there, I was like, do I just wanna like keep enjoying trail running? But I was watching Club Nationals, you know, from my couch. And I was like, dang, I think that I, that I do wanna keep playing ultimate and at that time I was like, okay. It feels like just a huge leap of faith because I don't personally know anybody who has, who has done this before. Who has switched into being a male matching player, switched into the, into the open division? Not to say that that nobody has done it, but nobody that, that I know or that I could talk to about it. But I was like, I think that as like scary as this feels that it also feels like the right kind of challenging.
Luisa: Can you tell us a little bit about BFG or, did you try out for any other teams was BFG kind of like, that's the team I wanna play for?
Jack Verzuh: This winter, I practiced with a men's team for a while, like a open team, which was good. And then in the spring, when it was time for club tryouts, I tried out for Sockeye, Mixtape, and BFG. In addition to Riot, those are the teams in Seattle that are going to play Worlds and they kind of had earlier tryouts and they're all really top level teams. And so I was like, I would be totally excited about trying out for any of these teams. And I think that deciding in the fall and then knowing all winter long that like, I was gonna kind of shoot my shot at the end of the spring, I feel like that was like, a really challenging and also like include a lot of growth for me and my mental toughness as a, as an athlete. And I think going from the fall, I really kind of had this mindset of my challenge right now is to like train hard enough and do well enough and play well enough that like, I can be accepted as a man in these communities of men or like these teams as a man, right? And I felt like, okay, my challenge is to like, prove that I can make it. And that I'm like good enough and that I can be accepted. And that was like, as you can imagine, like a ton of pressure, right? To feel like, okay, not only am I like in my garage gym doing squats, like I'm also like carrying the weight of can I be accepted as my true self playing ultimate? And I feel like the real epiphany or realization through this process, was as all good epiphanies are, it's like, it's kind of something that I already knew, but that I wasn't like really like holding and living by and that like, of course I am already a man.
I don't like prove that to anybody. And that like, nothing that I do on the ultimate field is gonna make me more or less of a man, right? My own understanding and my belief in myself as a man, that's like, what makes me a man? And I feel like this is the challenge for me was not actually carrying this massive weight and like succeeding. It was like setting down this massive weight and just being like, if I'm making decisions that are right for myself, and then I'm proud of myself and how I'm acting and what I'm doing and what I'm striving for then like that's it, right? That's like the challenge. And then I don't need to like solve sexism by, you know, and and in my own play on the frisbee field. Yeah. And so I feel like that that felt like a really kind of important moment for me. And still obviously I really wanted to make a, a team, you know, that that did not like, that was like good for me, but also I still had to like make these teams. Yeah, so I was trying out for, for Sockeye, for Mixtape and and for BFG. and I got cut from Sockeye, which obviously is, I was sad, but I also was not as totally devastated as I thought that I was going to be. I think because I had had this kind of opportunity to be like, a roster spot in one of these teams is not what defines me. And I also think that as like a queer person, I feel like I have been handed a lot of shame by society. Like, oh, you're supposed to feel ashamed of your sexuality. You're supposed to feel ashamed of being gender nonconforming or whatever. And I feel like kind of a long time ago, I was like, you know, I don't think that I really need to like, carry all this shame around.
I'm not gonna feel ashamed about, about this. And I feel like moving through society as a man, you're also like handed a lot of shame and and I feel like that's like a, a big part of masculinity is like, what kind of keeps people in line is like, oh, if you're not succeeding at masculinity, you should feel shame, you know? And if you're not succeeding at sports, you should feel shame. And also you're not enough of a man. And I kind of was like, you know, I actually think that, I feel like I'm supposed to feel shame about like being cut from a team oh, I'm not man enough to like beat people on the frisbee field. But also I feel like that is not something that just trans men feel. I actually feel like a lot of men are like, put under that pressure of oh, you got sky, and that's like a, that's like a knock to your masculinity. Whereas like, if you're skying other people, oh, that bolsters your masculinity. And I'm, I feel like I'm like, you know, if I wasn't gonna like, carry around shame as a queer person, then I'm not gonna carry around shame as a man, you know?
So I feel like that was also an opportunity for me to be like, wow, I thought I was gonna be like, totally devastated to not make a team like Sockeye when I was playing on a top team like Riot, but also I've been like, lots of people don't make a top team like Sockeye and yeah, and I also, I mean, it's been fun to play in the mixed division, which I've never played in the mixed division before. And I think that I have some unique abilities compared to other male matching players who are trying out for teams specifically around having experienced playing both in an open Malema context and in the women's division throwing to like female match players. So, I, I felt like I was like, okay, I can bring these skills to these mixed team tryouts.
and particularly on BFG, I felt like the leadership of the team was willing to like work with me on what is like a good role. What's a good fit for like my skills and it's different than, than it maybe was when I was playing on, on Riot. and there's like the mental challenge when there's also like the actual on field challenge of my relative skills compared to the people that I'm playing against have changed. I'm like a different type of player than I was before. Some of my physical barriers are changing, like, exactly how high it can jump. It's not exactly the same. It's like all these like kind of 10% adjustments and the entire all of my game. So it's been hard and it's, but it's been, um, the feeling of setting down all of the weight that I was carrying about, being misgendered all the time. I'm just like, wow. I have 10 times the energy that I wanna like bring to a team, you know, that I like, I wanna be practice so bad, you know, as opposed to being like, okay, I wanna go to practice. But also it feels like really hard to show up, you know? And so in that way, I feel like all of the like challenges. really feel worth it for, for the ways that it like that. I think it's giving me energy now.
Luisa: That's so cool.
Tulsa: Yeah.
Jack Verzuh: Yeah.
Tulsa: Oh yeah. I'm not going to go on any rant, but it's just like, why can't we just create spaces so people can feel like they get to be their full selves and like show up however they want and be excited to be there fully. I feel like a lot of things that you said were really um, A lot of really great reflection. And I think reframing things and and making me think about things in different ways. And I think the piece about like claiming how you identify is who you are and like not letting whether somebody takes you on their team, determine your identity. That is just like so empowering and hard. it's not simple. And also like, yeah, I'm just kudos to you. And I, I feel like you're sharing some really valuable lessons that cross a lot of different identities and things and everything. Yeah. So thank you for sharing all that.
Luisa: I was literally thinking that as you were talking Jack, I was like, Ugh, wait, that's how I feel about going to practice right now.
Jack Verzuh: Yeah.
Luisa: That's cool. That's really really cool.
Jack Verzuh: Yeah. I mean, I think, I feel like during the pandemic break from frisbee, looking at some of the people, like, whether it's like looking at Twitter or whatever, and having some people be like, oh, I can't wait for ultimate to start again. I'm so excited. I just want to go to practice all the time and having other people be like, wow, I really am realizing the weight that being on my team or being in this community, as like a person holding a marginalized identity or multiple marginalized identities, I feel like that difference to me was just so stark. And when somebody was like, oh, I can't wait to get back to ultimate. I feel like I was like, wow, we have, we must have really different experiences in ultimate coming back. I'm like, I don't know if I can like pick up all this shit again that I was carrying. I was like, yes. I, I feel you. And I feel like we all need to like, do better for those people, right? So that you're not like, okay, yeah, I wanna come to practice. But like, I can think of 10 reasons that I don't want to go, you know?
Tulsa: I feel like not everyone gets to just show up and play ultimate. And I think a lot of people take that for granted.
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Tulsa: I'm sure you have a lot of thoughts. I wonder if you have any thoughts you wanna share about the trans policies from USAU and then also WFDF particularly.
Jack Verzuh: Yeah, that's a good question. I'm gonna think about it for a second.
Tulsa: Okay. Yeah. I know it. Thrown it to you on the spot.
Jack Verzuh: I would say. First of all, I was a part of creating when USAU created their new policy, which I think was in 2019, the end of 2019. that's when I was a part of the collaboration and I didn't see it all the way through, I was more sort of part of the, of the brainstorming phase. But they like brought together a working group of trans and gender nonconforming and queer folks. And basically from the very beginning, all of us were like, people should just be able to play with wherever they want in whatever division they want with no restrictions. And everyone was like, yes. And we were like, great. Let's like delete everything and just like, write that. Okay, great. And then we were like, boom, we, we crushed it. and I, I think that it's like really awesome that that is like the direction that, that USAU has gone, because I think that that Well first, I would say that, that a lot of the conversations around particularly we're talking about like excluding trans women from playing women's sports, right?
It's like the hot topic. It's the culture wars topic. And that argument, underlying assumptions and myths. The underlying myths about it are like one that everybody assigned male at birth is superior physically in all ways to everybody assigned female at birth, right? Which is just sexism and that, but that is a really um, foundational piece of anybody's argument really about trans people in sports, if they're trying to be exclusive. And then the other foundational piece is like, oh, that trans people are lying or something, or that they're not who they say they are like whatever. Which obviously is just like overt transphobia and there's really no argument for like restricting who can play where unless you. Buying into those two ideas of sexism and transphobia. And so some of these like policies that like allow transgender people to play it all in the Olympics are like progress because like, it used to be like totally banned. And in some sports trans people are like banned. And one of my personal heroes uh, Chris Moser, the first trans man to be on the US Olympic team for, for triathlon a number of years ago. And like, he's done a lot of work to make it possible for trans people to play. and but you still need to like meet certain hormone requirements. Which to me, in, in my mind, like we just have to like abolish that and that there's so many intersecting oppressions. Like we, we see like not only like trans people being excluded, but like also cis women, right? And particularly black and brown women being targeted you know, for like hormone levels, right? But it's just racism, right? And sexism. And to me, the ultimate goal is to like, have divisions beyond the binary. And that for playing divisions and in the meantime, just let people choose to play wherever they want. and I say like, choose to play wherever they want.
Sometimes people say, oh, to choose to like play a division that matches their gender identity. But to my experience, I'm like, I played for a division a long time that didn't match my gender identity. I just chose to play there cuz I that's where I felt like I would fit the best at that time. So people to play in divisions wherever they want and to like not have hormone testing. Humans have a range of genetic attributes. And like, until we are like, Michael Phelps, your feet are too big to swim, we cannot tell anybody else that their blank is too blank to play this sport. So that's how I feel about it.
Tulsa: Yeah. Thank you for sharing that snaps. All of it. Yeah.
Luisa: I'd love to know what you're excited for with BFG. I know, like going to Worlds and everything, but like, what are, what are some other things that you're maybe excited about doing with the team? What are you working on for yourself? Yeah, as you're coming back to ultimate, what's, what's exciting you?
Jack Verzuh: Yeah, totally. Well, I would just say that, that so far, my experience with BFG is that they're just like a really intentional and committed group, both to like being great frisbee players, but then also like to being bringing their best selves to like the team and the community and like building a community that like everybody can like feel welcomed and seen in. And I feel like on any frisbee team. There's kind of the situational bounds of that, right? In which like frisbee is a pay to play sport, right? And you have to have the resources and time and energy to like, be good enough at frisbee to like make a, a top club team. And so I, I'm not, not to say that it's like that like any team is gonna be like perfect at, at transcending those things. But so far I've been like really excited about being on the team. And so I'm just really excited to be in that community and like have teammates again. Yeah, I just feel like being, being teammates with somebody is like such, such a special like bond, and that kind of the past couple years, I feel like there's been this kind of like open question in my life of like, can I bring my full self to a team and feel like seen and respected as a trans-masculine person in sports? And I feel like the answer in the women's division was like, no, and you know, maybe that will change in future years.
And then there'll be like more, more space made for, for like trans folks and trans masculine folks and in the women's division. But like, for me, it was like, no, I can't, I can't both be on a team and feel like I'm bringing my full self and and this kind of past year through the tryout process and like playing on a men's team for a while in the winter and stuff like that. I feel like I've still, it's still, still been kind of an, an open question. And so to like, make a team like BFG where they're "we want you on the roster" with knowing that like my playing experience and knowing my identity and all this stuff, it like, feels like, uh, an answer to that question that like, that's my, my, my hypothesis is that like, and and we'll see how this season goes, but that like, yes, in this situation, like I can't bring my whole self to a team and like be seen and respected and loved by my, by my teammates. Yeah.
Tulsa: Awesome. I'm curious if there are any things that BFG does specifically, like, I don't know, like specific conversations or activities or, structured things that you have found really helpful, or you would like more teams to do anything like that?
Jack Verzuh: I feel like it's pretty early in the season and we've, you know, we've had like some kind of conversations about like equity and setting up some affinity groups and stuff like that. yeah yeah, I guess for BFG specifically, I'm not, I'm not, I guess we'll have to kind of see how it goes and see what the team kind of does. I've been part of a Discord channel of trans ultimate players and something that somebody shared in there was actually, Drag'n Thrust, their team website in which they have their own, in, in the pursuit of gender equity, instead of using like female match and male match, they have their own words that they've come up with that I think are Nova and Scion. In that, like, it's better to say oh, I need a, a female match player than I like, oh, are there any women who wanna play on the line? Are there any ladies who wanna play on the line? right? Which like, ladies, I feel like, again, that I, I could do without that word, but, um, that like, they're like, okay, these are like two categories that are like, serve a function in our team. But like language wise, we don't need to like connect them to gender and that, and that it's like an opportunity for like non-binary players or players who are playing in a, in a matching spot that doesn't match their own gender to like be more welcomed. And I feel like I would love to see the division move towards that.
Tulsa: Yeah, that's really interesting to not have to be reminded every time, like female matching player.
Jack Verzuh: Yeah, right? Like, can we just have a word? Yeah. Hmm.
Tulsa: I mean, I, I don't play a lot of mix, but in like some of the leagues and things I play, I think in the Northeast we use like Dows and doms, and I think it's still I think the intention behind it is good. And also it still means you're like, making assumptions about who you are defending versus like identifying individually. Yeah. So I think I like that idea. Mm.
Luisa: Yeah, I found that being on a mixed team, I've just found that this mixed space that I'm in is a lot more willing or interested actually in having these sorts of conversations. Um, I'm definitely curious. I'm also frustrated by why that is why, like the women's team I was on, didn't feel as, didn't feel as interested in having these sorts of conversations. And it's, it's just kind of interesting that the mixed team I'm on is, yeah, we actually have our first team wide equity meeting tonight to sort of talk about the language we wanna be using going into our first tournament this weekend. So it's, it's not, we, we sort of have some things set for the language that we use internally, but like, what do we wanna ask other teams to, to use, we want other teams to just use, they/them pronouns when referring to any of us, just sort of be safe. But we're also like starting to have, and I think this is part of the cool thing this year. Um, or like at least an interesting thing is that I, I feel like as Tulsa said in the, in the leagues and and teams that we're playing on in the Northeast, there's a lot of push to using, the sort of gender inclusive language that is it's cool push.
And also it's not perfect stuff like down do. Um, and so I think an interesting conversation that we've started to have, on our team is yeah. Talking about how there isn't really a cookie cutter solution. There's no perfect solution to how to talk about things and how to there's no perfect framework, I guess. And so we're finding ways to, at the very least, build our community, listen to our community, figure out what it is that the queer and gender nonconforming and trans people on our team need as like a stepping stone and then building off from there. So that's just like, I, I think that there's been with some of these shifts in like language and push to being more inclusive. I feel like there's a lot of jumping at like, okay, what's, what's the right thing to do here. And I think, that acknowledgement that there is not one right thing, probably the one right thing is what we sort of talked about earlier. It's building relationships with our teammates and listening to the needs of the people in our community. So it's been a cool thing in the last couple weeks as we've put together this this roster. Yeah. Hmm.
Jack Verzuh: Totally. Yeah. I love that. Yeah. I, I love that. And I think just thinking about like, people listening to the podcast and like hearing you know, my experience or my perspective is that I hope, instead of like ending it feeling like, oh, I know more about trans ultimate player's experience. I feeling like, oh, wow. I knew like way less than I thought about trans ultimate player's experience. And like, So many different ways to be trans and queer and to interact with ultimate. For me, switching into a different binary system is like, oh, that feels like affirming to me. But also like, that is not the answer, right? That it's not like, oh, people can just play in the one that they want to, we need, like, you're saying, it's like, as my teammate, what do you want? How, how could we make practice more inclusive for you? How could, what could we ask other teams to do or say? Yeah, totally. So I love that.
Tulsa: And I like that framing, if, if, let me see if I'm getting this right? It feels like it's a framing of like, wow, I did not know a lot and I have a lot more to learn versus like, good. I got it. I know one person's ex part of a small piece of one person's experience.
Jack Verzuh: Totally. Yeah.
Tulsa: So I think you mentioned before you talked about kind of the double edged sword of being a highly visible trans athlete and. some of the pros and cons of that. I don't know if there's any more you wanna share there or anything you wanna share kind of about what support your communities have been able to provide?
Jack Verzuh: Yeah. I mean, I think something that kind of comes to mind thinking about visibility is just like the overt legislative attacks on the trans community. in some cases using the avenue of sports to like attack trans youth often, and sometimes just overtly attacking trans youth and their access to healthcare. And like gender affirming and life saving healthcare. And I think to all kind of trans folks, when we see this in the news, it lands super heavy or at least it does for me, you know, speaking for my experience because I kind of like understand the like weight of what it means to like, have it be hard to access gender forming care, right? Or to be in a situation as a young person where people are not respecting you, but you don't have any agency and like how to get what you need and find a safe space. And I think that the really high rates of self harm and suicide among trans youth is just this devastating statistic that represents how hard it is to be, A young trans person in America. And I think of that when I think about visibility and the, and the urgency of fighting these fights, to provide that life saving care for young people. but then I, I also really think about making the, differentiation between transphobia is challenging and tragic and and really hard, but like actually being trans is like, awesome. It's like fucking awesome. and it's amazing. And it's totally a gift. And it it's something that I like am so grateful for in my experience in my life. And I think that sometimes when we talk about oppression against the queer community, there becomes this false equation, this simplification that oh, being queer is tragic and hard and challenging, but like being queer actually is awesome.
And that homophobia and transphobia and all these things are like, what's sad. But I think, you know, people are like, oh, you know, say to their kids, like, I just want an easy life for you. I just want you to be happy, right? Instead of being queer, right? But that's the simplification simplification that they're making. And so when I think about visibility, I also think about how like every day I get up and I'm living a life that is so awesome that I literally couldn't have imagined it 10 years ago or 20 years ago when I was a kid that because of the lack of visibility, I didn't know any trans men until I was maybe in college.
I mean, never seeing that, right? Or never seeing positive representations of, of trans people until I was so much older. I literally couldn't imagine it. It never crossed my mind that the life that I'm living right now was possible for me. And I think that's both very sad and a, and really incredible and inspiring because for young people, your future, is maybe so bright that it's like beyond your wildest imaginations, that you literally can't imagine how awesome it's gonna be. And like, you just have to hang in there and make it to that future so that you can see. And so. Yeah, that to me is like the urgency of visibility, right? Is like showing trans and queer futures in this moment of total crisis for the community. yeah. And so I think for that reason that like, I am hoping to take the, the kind of opportunity that I've been given of being, a talented frizz player who also is trans and who like maybe is coming into like, can hopefully be for somebody the vision of trans happiness and a trans future that like, I feel like we really really need. So that's what, that's, what comes to mind, for visibility. Hmm.
Tulsa: Yeah. I think I wanna circle back to kind of something that I said in the beginning around when you were mentioning, like switching divisions and I kind of think maybe I didn't catch it, right? Cuz it sounds like in maybe. Okay. Tell me if I'm, if I'm wrong, but maybe ideally you would wanna switch divisions and be able to celebrate it and be happy about it and not have any of the negative conversation around it, rather than just like switching quietly, but being like, Hey, this is where I feel. Great. Everyone celebrate with me kind of thing.
Jack Verzuh: Hmm. Yeah. Yeah. I guess maybe there's a world in which, there are so many trans athletes playing sports at all levels that it's just not even a big.
Tulsa: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Jack Verzuh: You know, and like, I think that's maybe what you're kind of getting out of. maybe it'd be awesome if this wasn't like, uh, uh, a news line, worthy right? And then if if there was like so much like public comfort with people moving between the many different boxes that we have about around gender and sexuality and and all these norms. And then if there was just so much more freedom of expression, right? And even to the extent that somebody could play in the men's division on Wednesday in the women's division on Friday, and it would just be not a big deal, you know? And I feel like, and again, you know, ideally moving beyond binary gender based divisions, but I think that this world that it feels hard. I think sometimes to imagine a world that, given the kind of pressures and rigidity and. Institutional interpersonal commitment to the gender binary. But that, I feel like the more that we choose to live in that, that world that we wanna live in, you know, the like closer we get to it.
Tulsa: And I think continuing to push the boundaries of what we can imagine, because I think that even in this conversation in the beginning, I'm like, oh yeah, between the two divisions and now I'm like two divisions, you know? Yeah.
Jack Verzuh: And I think when I like that, I like that idea of beyond imagining, because when I think about, or we can imagine when I think about. cis folks or straight folks or, or people who are listening to this podcast. And they're like, oh, I wanna like learn. And I wanna like be an ally and stuff like that. I really think about with gender, recognizing the way that all of us, every single person in society is like hurt in some way by gender. And that we are all gonna be better off the less that we are forced into gender norms, right? And into harmful gender norms. And that when we think about inclusion and like queer inclusion, it's both accepting and loving the full spectrum of humanity. And like, as we see in other people, but like it has to start with accepting and loving the full spectrum of humanity in, in ourselves, right? I think that that society asks people to like, hate the gender nonconforming or to reject the gender nonconforming parts of themselves. But that like, you can't do that and be like, oh, I love, these queer people. But if you have to love that part of yourself first, and then we're able to like, love others more fully and accept them and see them. So, yeah. I do think that it's, about this effort of imagination of what, what would it be like to live more freely and like less restrictively? Yeah.
Tulsa: Yeah. I think that we're giving people a lot to think about . Yeah. At least I have a lot to, more to think about.
Luisa: Well, thank you, Jack. For coming on an, an episode of Share the Air. It was super exciting to have you join us for a conversation. So thank you.
Jack Verzuh: Well I feel really grateful that we had the opportunity to, to have this conversation. It was really wonderful to talk to you both. So thank you for having me.
Luisa: Thanks for listening and we'll see you next time. If you like the podcast and want to support us, here are a few things that you can do.
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Tulsa: Thanks so much for listening.
Luisa: Share the Air is recorded and edited by Tulsa Douglas and Luisa Neves. It is planned and produced by Tulsa Douglas, Luisa Neves, and Tim Bobrowski.
Tulsa: Share the Air's music is by Grey Devlin and Christopher Hernandez.
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