This episode we chat with YouTuber and Empire and PoNY member Marques Brownlee. Co-hosted by Tulsa Douglas and Luisa Neves.
This episode, we talk with Marques Brownlee. Marques tells us about how he started playing at Columbia High School, and how close he came to playing golf instead of ultimate. He talks about his experience playing for New York Empire in addition to other pro teams, and he also dives into his club experience playing with PoNY this year. Marques also reflects on his experiences as a Black man playing and working in predominantly white spaces.
This is the third episode of Season 2 of Share the Air. To listen to previous guests, check out our Season 1 episodes wherever you get your podcasts. If you want to hear even more of us, check out our Patreon page, where you can listen to bonus content every two weeks, as well as access other cool benefits! We already have a number of bonus episode out, filled with new interviews, thoughtful discussions, great stories, and extra content that we couldn't fit into the original episodes. Also, if you want to rep some sweet Share the Air gear, check out our new store, courtesy of VC Ultimate! For more information on upcoming episodes, follow us on our socials: Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook.
Share the Air is hosted by Tulsa Douglas and Luisa Neves. It is planned, edited, and produced by Tulsa Douglas, Luisa Neves, and Tim Bobrowski. Share the Air's music is by Grey Devlin and Christopher Hernandez. Share the Air is sponsored by the National Ultimate Training Camp, VC Ultimate, and the Centre for Applied Neuroscience.
Luisa: Hello everyone. Welcome to episode three of Share the Air. Before we get started, we're going to answer a listener question from one of our Patreon subscribers, Susan R.
Tulsa: says, my question is a followup to the question about spirit points and tradition as someone who's a casual fan whenever and wherever Tulsa is playing. I had the impression that yes, spirit is a differentiator for the sport. Supposedly adding an element that makes competition and winning points, not the only factors in winning. However, I hear your points about how that is problematic because different teams and different people interpret it differently. it isn't really implemented in a helpful way.
So I guess three follow-up questions, a little more about the history of why spirit was originally part of the game a general agreement that it's not necessarily serving the sport anymore, and it might be alienating to some instead of helpful.
And three, are you all working on trying to get it changed?
Are there conversations going on in the sport about potentially changing how spirit is implemented or discontinuing it?
Luisa: So for a little bit of context this is a sort of clarification question after our most recent Tii with Tiina bonus episode, in which we talked with coach Tiina Booth about Spirit of the Game. So I guess to start, I mean, I actually don't know why Spirit of the Game was part of the founding principles, I guess, of ultimate frisbee. Other sports would really just see Spirit of the Game as sportsmanship. So I don't actually know what the difference was.
Tulsa: Yeah, I don't either. And I think Tiina maybe mentioned in our bonus episode that ultimate started with referees. so at some point it changed and I'm not sure I think to have to get Tiina back on for that. So we can't answer question one. Let's try question two. I think we can generally agree. We, as in Share the Air, and you, Luisa, that of the Game currently is not serving in a helpful, positive way.
Luisa: Most specifically in the systems that Spirit of the Game kind of enforces. So there's still a lot of things that as Tiina mentioned in our bonus episode, a lot of facets of white supremacy that are present in terms of senses of urgency and prioritizing results over relationships. And some of these things are kind of just part of sports and there are still things that are very specific to Spirit of the Game that contribute to these sorts of problems, I guess. So there's been a lot, a lot, a lot of discussion in ultimate frisbee circles, particularly on social media, about why Spirit of the Game is problematic. In terms of what folks can work on to try to get it changed. I know that my team really uses their spirits circles and my club teams spirit captains are very proactive about actually using those channels of communication to talk about disagreements, to talk about dangerous play. And I think conversations are probably the number one tool, at least for me right now. Talking to other talking to other teams, talking to other opponents about these disagreements, rather than letting it sweep under the rug for the sake of being polite is I think one way to combat the problems that Spirit of the Game inherently encourages.
Tulsa: Yeah, I've also heard some conversations around spirits scoring if adjusting the Spirit's scoring sheet, the way it works is going to fix it. Or if there, if there needs to be like larger change. So in general, I think need to sit down with Tiina and have another conversation and try and deeper into this and answer more of these questions in depth.
Luisa: Yeah. So if you want to listen to our first Tii with Tiina episode to get a little bit more context, or if you want to stay tuned for this part two episode that we'll have with her you can check that out on our Patreon. Our subscribers get access to bonus episodes such as Tii with Tiina, as well as a bunch of other fun content. So check us out at patreon.com/sharetheair.
Tulsa: Thank you, Susan, for this question. And now, we'll get into our conversation with Marques Brownlee.
Luisa: Today we're talking with Marques Brownlee. Marques grew up in Maplewood, New Jersey and played ultimate at Columbia High School. Marques went on to play ultimate at Stevens Institute of Technology and with the Garden State Ultimate team, the New Jersey Hammerheads, the Philly Phoenix, and the New York Rumble. This past season, Marques competed with the men's club team, New York PoNY, as well as the AUDL team, New York Empire. Outside of ultimate, Marques is a video producer and tech reviewer. His YouTube MKBHD recently reached 15 million subscribers. Marques, thanks for joining us on Share the Air.
Marques Brownlee: Thanks for having me. Yeah.
Tulsa: Okay. Let's rewind way back. Marques, maybe you can share with us how you first got into ultimate.
Marques Brownlee: Yeah. So I grew up in Maplewood, New Jersey. I've been around people who play for a long time. And sometime between eighth grade and high school, I did a summer camp and I was introduced to the sport in Maplewood. And then as a freshman in high school in 2007, I met a couple of people who were like, yeah, come out and try out for the team. You know, there's going to be tryouts at this field. I didn't have anything better to do. So I was like, yeah, sure. I'll go hang out and go to the tryout. And I just loved it. And I immediately was friends with a lot of people on the team, and that was my introduction, essentially, to ultimate. Now Columbia High School has a long history of high level ultimate. They had a varsity team and a junior varsity team. So I at the time stepped right on and started playing with the JV team. And that's the best intro I could've asked for to the sport. I mean, that was coached, high level youth team with like jerseys and parents that cared about driving kids to tournaments, the whole thing. So that was my beginning of ultimate frisbee.
Tulsa: Yeah, I feel pretty lucky cause I was the same thing. Like JV program. I don't know about you, but I was bummed to have not been on the varsity team my freshman year. Did you feel that?
Marques Brownlee: Not my freshman year. My freshman year, we had an elite level varsity team that was on a quest to win the Eastern championships. And I was just first picking up the sport. So I didn't expect it that year. The next year I was like, all right, now I gotta level up. And I didn't. And I captained the JV team, but I still think that was a pretty great formative experience. So yeah. And then, you know, playing for the varsity team was great.
Tulsa: And then, so you went on to Stevens Tech, and going into college, did you know you wanted to keep playing?
Marques Brownlee: Yeah, it was interesting. So in high school I played ultimate, but I also played a lot of golf and I played a lot of competitive junior golf. In those couple of years, I started the golf team at Columbia High School and going to college, I initially thought that I was going to play golf more. And the story goes that I emailed the golf coach when I was committing to Stevens. And I was like, Hey, what level are you looking for for walk-ons for the golf team? And I just got like a two sentence email. Like we don't accept walk-ons, probably isn't right for you. And I was like, Really. Oh, wow. Okay. And I was looking up their tournament results and I was like, I would totally not be the worst player on that team. But from that exact moment that I got that email, I would be playing ultimate. And I met people at the summer program a couple months before I actually started my freshman year that were just tossing on the one field in Hoboken, which is on Steven's campus and sure enough, they were on the team and they were like, oh, you can throw and run and catch. Did you know, we have a team here? You should definitely play. And that was a no brainer.
Tulsa: I feel Like golf is one of those sports where it's pretty clear right? With the handicap.
Marques Brownlee: Yeah. Yeah. It was. I really did think I would be playing and I still wanted to play and I've played a lot since, but you can just look at the tournament results and like, oh, I've played the courses they've played at. And here's the scores that they've shot. And I guess it was just not having the right connections or not emailing fast enough, but they just didn't have any room for me. So their loss, I guess.
Luisa: Cool. So Garden State Ultimate, GSU was that your first club experience?
Marques Brownlee: Technically, it was my second. Uh, the first time I ever played club was YCC, which was right after high school. And during my freshman year of college, I captained DEVYL and then I played for GSU. So right back to back. But yeah, that was fun because that was my first time ever playing with people from like different parts of the area. It was funny because up until that first YCC experience, it was like, if you didn't play for CHS, you are like sworn enemy. If I see your face, like, I know I hate you because you play for some other school Amherst, maybe some other random school. I was like, never, I would never be cool with them. But the second we played DEVYL, it was all these different schools coming together and immediately going from playing against each other to learning what we were going to be as teammates and to try to win a championship together. So that was my formative club experience actually. And then yeah, straight to GSU.
Luisa: And how was that getting started? Cause it sounds like you've played fairly competitive fairly established programs, since the start of your career. So did you notice any differences you transitioned into formal club?
Marques Brownlee: Yeah I played with established programs right up until then, but in college that was a D-III school with no coach. So that was like the opposite of an established program. And at the same time started playing for GSU, with a coach and even for Hammerheads around the same time. And so all, it was kind of a mix of experiences all going on at once. I definitely noticed a difference, like playing for a coach is different from, captaining alongside your fellow teammates and trying to bring a bunch of guys together on the same page. It was a good mix to have. And I also had a wide variety of responsibilities depending on which team I was playing for. With GSU, for example, a little more limited, I know that I'm a defensive cutter on that team versus with Stevens. There's no one who's going to throw it to me deep. So I have to be the one that's handling on offense a lot. So O-line handler, D-line cutter totally opposite experiences, but I think a good mix of things to all be doing at once to sort of round out how versatile you can be as a player.
Tulsa: So I also play D-III and when I showed up at college, the team did not have a coach and it was definitely a shift from my college experience. And I think that's one of the things that I took from college was just like, yeah, I'm going to play a lot. And I'm getting a lot of chances to throw the disc and I'm going to get it back a lot, but just like learning a lot about throws and what throws work and just getting a lot of playing time.
Marques Brownlee: Yeah. That was, I also think I dunno if I'm skipping ahead too much, but we played Hammerheads that was like the second year of the AUDL. And I felt like I had kind of the same role as on Stevens. Interestingly, even though it was a coach team, so I would play O-line. I think I led the league and turnovers, it was like a very, you got to learn the edges of your game somehow. So that was, that was really how I pushed it.
Luisa: So New Jersey Hammerheads, that was the early stages of the AUDL
Marques Brownlee: Yeah.
Luisa: Okay. And how many years did you play with them? And did you take a break between Hammerheads and Empire?
Marques Brownlee: No. Yeah. So I did switch between leagues. So I played for the Hammerheads for the one year that they existed. And then I played then the following season in the MLU for the New York Rumble for whom I played about three seasons. Then I switched back to the AUDL where I played for Philly Phoenix, and then Empire for the past three years. So I've been bouncing back from Philly to New York and from MLU to AUDL, I've seen a lot. But yeah, the Hammerheads existed for one year. That was the second year of the AUDL. And that was a great year, even though we only won, I think two games or whatever. At a certain point, it wasn't really about that anymore. It was just like, this is very different for this sport. So yeah, that was, that was one of my most fun years of ultimate, I think.
Tulsa: What was it like? So you were in college when you first played for the Hammerheads. You mentioned it was, it was a different experience. What felt so different and playing both club, college, and Hammerheads all at the same time?
Marques Brownlee: I remember we went to Toronto for their home opener. It was like our second game of the season. And at the time it was the largest crowd that had ever attended a single ultimate game. It was like 2200 people or something like that. And I'll never forget running out from under the bleachers and getting booed by 2000 people at once.
Luisa: Oh, my God.
Marques Brownlee: it, just loving it. Like that was, I wouldn't have changed a thing. that was great. And they crushed us. I think they doubled us up. We weren't a good team. They went undefeated that year. It was like, it wasn't even about winning, but it was about this very different atmosphere from club or college where like, maybe there's some parents and some friends on the sideline. Maybe if you're lucky you made it to the finals and there's some other teams watching, but there's nobody from outside of ultimate going into the middle of the woods in upstate New York to watch this tournament. It was just people who we knew who knew already that that was going on. And this Toronto field was like, you know, there's foot traffic. There's people stopping outside the stadium, looking through the bars, like what's all that noise. And that was really cool. I think that an opportunity to like see ultimate in a new light and share it with people. And that's kind of how I look at pro ultimate still to this day is it's the most sharable version of ultimate. So that being my intro to it was like, even if I am on the absolute worst end of this beating, this is great. I, I enjoy this a lot.
Luisa: Yeah. That's that sounds like a really unique experience. Cause you've played in club finals. And I've been to a few Empire games and they draw what feels like pretty large and, engaged crowds for what we're maybe used to in club and for Tulsa and I with the Premier Ultimate League and having a crowd of that 2200 must feel even with the other experiences you've had, a pretty unique sort of crowd experience.
Marques Brownlee: Yeah. It's special. I like to think that probably with every game we play, there is somebody there who is their first time actually watching a frisbee game. And even with all the past years of club where there would be, rows of people on the sidelines and things like that, you can, you can never really count on this growing the sport or being like the first time somebody sees ultimate being played. Sometimes it was, but it wasn't really quite the same. When you're in front of, just people walking down whatever main street that was under the tower in Toronto, you can, you can guarantee there's somebody who's never seen ultimate before. And this is what they're going to think of when they imagine somebody saying ultimate frisbee or reacting to what that is. So I think it was pretty special. And I think that continues to this day.
Luisa: Yeah I definitely want to talk about your impressions of and experiences with and within the AUDL. But to start, tell us about your experience on Empire. You've been with this team for three years after having been with like a few other AUDL and MLU teams. So what's Empire doing that has kept you around?
Marques Brownlee: Yeah, Empire has been great. Easily the most professional organization I've been a part of and like great coaching and great teammates and obviously a great city. So it's been a pretty ideal pro experience. It helps also to have a great team. So we've been, we've been really competitive and having great coaching means we get the most out of our players and we get to represent New York in the playoffs and all that is an extra bonus on top of it. But again, I, you know, I kind of talk about pro as this packageable way of sharing the sport. And they've been really good at that. They sell tickets, they get people to come to games. They put on a good show and a good experience for people who go to games. I feel like it is a great first experience for a lot of people. And yeah. I keep going back to coaching, but a lot of my changes in teams over the years have actually had ties to coaching continuity. If I start with Rumble. I think Eileen Murray was a coach of that Rumble team. And then when I went to play for Philly Phoenix, she was also coaching there
Luisa: she coached and...
Philly as well.
Marques Brownlee: Yes. And she coached GSU at the time. And so then a bunch of teammates from there went and played Empire where she also started coaching there. So that coaching continuity was the common thread through all of that. So yeah, that's been a big reason why I've grown as a player, too.
Luisa: Where do you feel like your career as a player, or your skills as a player have grown, especially with Empire? I feel like when I think about you on Empire, I think, okay, D-line cutter. Absolutely, a puller, I feel like you're pretty well known for your pulls. Are those all skills that you feel have been really developed and honed with the New York Empire?
Marques Brownlee: Definitely. I mean, every team you have a slightly different role. And I think my real development as a player started at well, I mean, obviously high school, you learn a lot about the sport and the fundamentals, but when you sort of cut the leash off and go to Stevens and no one's coaching, and you kind of have to do all of the things you learn, what you're good at and you learn what you need to work really hard at to get better at. So if I am on D-line and O-line, I'm polling, I'm learning what my, the edges of my throws are, but also how I can defend all different types of players. And since then playing, you know, for pro teams and playing for coaches and ultimately landing on this Empire team, I've been able to adapt as a puzzle piece and fit in, even though I'm capable of doing different things, I can maximize parts of my game, that the team needs to be the best addition to the team. So I can be a center O-line handler if you really want, but we've got really good center o-line handlers already. So I don't have to be that guy. You need a puller. I got you. So that's, that's what I've been doing in New York, and that's what I've been getting better at.
Tulsa: Yeah, I think that's a piece of the transition from high school college lower-level club into elite level. Ultimate is like figuring out what you are best at, where you can slot in, what other people are best at and playing within, knowing what you're good at. And I think that can, it can take some time and it can be hard.
Marques Brownlee: Yeah. And
it's also,
Tulsa: Yeah.
Marques Brownlee: Oh Yeah. for sure. I mean, a lot of times it's coaches telling you to do more of something. I think a lot of my coaches have had to tell me to do less of things. You know, one of my biggest till Shiloh, who led the league in turnovers in 2013, like stop throwing so many edge of your game throws, like if you want to be an elite player, you can't turn it 20% of the time you touched the disc. So learning when to holster things that you think you can throw, but there's a better option. And I think trust and teammates is also a big part of that. At least for me mentally, when I feel like I won't have another option after this one expires, I feel like I have to try to make a throw work, where when you play for a high level team, I feel like I can look dump. And if that doesn't get open for three seconds, I look back to the front of the stack and then I check back again, like there's a bunch of options that I can trust. I don't feel like I have to force something as soon as I see it. And that's been, I think, really helpful for growing as a decision maker.
Tulsa: Yeah, and I think that's at least for me, that's like a college mindset to move past. Definitely. Yeah.
Luisa: Share the Air will be right back, but first here's a quick word from our sponsors.
Tulsa: Share the Air is sponsored by the National Ultimate Training Camp. Located in Western Massachusetts. NUTC is the longest running ultimate sleepover camp in the country. It has also gone international, hosting camps and teaching clinics all over the globe. With the most talented coaches in the world, NUTC is teaching ultimate for the next generation. Learn from the best at NUTC.
Luisa: Share the Air is also sponsored by VC ultimate. VC has been producing custom uniforms and performance apparel since 1998. A company that proudly puts values and community before profit, VC is the world's best source for quality design and all your ultimate needs. You can support VC and rep Share the Air jerseys by checking out our team store at vcultimate.com.
I wanted to jump back to something that you mentioned earlier about the AUDL and pro ultimate being the most shareable sort of version of ultimate right now and how that's good for, or at least conducive to growing the sport outside of people who are already playing club and in leagues and all that sort of thing. As a player in the PUL, I think I was certainly really hesitant to attend AUDL games pretty early on. And it really hasn't been until this last year that I engaged a little bit more, specifically with New York Empire. Primarily because of the relationships I feel like I have with a bunch of your Empire teammates. But going to that first Empire home game was a really wild experience for me to walk into the stadium where there's merch being sold. As soon as you walk in there's all sorts of food stands, there's all of this engagement with the audience. It's about the fans more so than the team and the players. That was a really incredible experience for me. And quite honestly, made me very jealous. I like, I was like, I wish I wish Gridlock could have this. I wish the PUL could have this. All of this to kind of get to the question... what have you observed about the AUDL that you feel are things that the AUDL or specifically the New York Empire have kind of done right, in terms of sharing ultimate, making ultimate this sort of product to grow the sport?
Marques Brownlee: Ultimate still a young sport and I think ultimate, pro ultimate in general is learning a lot from other more successful, more well-developed pro sports. I use the NBA as a parallel really often when talking about pro ultimate leagues. And so when I look at what New York Empire does really well, a lot of that comes from what you see working well in the highest and the highest level of pro sports. So if I've gone to an NBA game, there's never a second where you're not being entertained or sold something. Whether it's the halftime show or the game itself, or like during a timeout, the music playing, or there's all these little things that all add to that fan experience. And that's ultimately what they're selling. And so I look at Empire and I'm like, we have a marching band, That's just for the fans. Like obviously it gets us hyped too, to see that on the sideline during halftime and everything, but they have the shops, they have the posters and all this stuff. And a lot of that, I think you can draw straight lines between those things and what's working well with leagues like the NBA. But ultimately there's also beyond the physical. When I say shareable, it's like, there's also the social media part of it, which is after the game, like the game happened already. Now there's clips of it. There's videos of it. There's players whose personas are larger than they are on the field. All of these things to exist in the NBA. You can follow your favorite NBA player on Instagram or Twitter and, and see their workouts or see what kind of music they like or whatever. And that's an extension of the league. And that's something, too, that's starting to happen more in the pro ultimate world where it's like, okay, I have my favorite players on the field. And after game, I might get them to sign a disc or I might follow them on Twitter, or I might see a video clip of a play they made. And I was there for that. And look, I'm in the background, in the stands, all this stuff I see those parallels all the way through. So I think that honestly, the more things that we see work in those higher end leagues, the more ideas we can be getting to do better in the AUDL and et cetera. So I think that's been working pretty good.
Tulsa: To maybe jump into a harder question. I think there there's definitely some criticism around the AUDL for a number of different things. One being that it's a league built for men currently, just men, one being kind of the types of plays that maybe are highlighted and promoted on social media, another being, not using observers, but using refs. So I think my question is, how do you feel playing in the league in light of these criticisms?
Marques Brownlee: I think a lot of that for me, comes down to the fact that ultimate is still a pretty young sport and there are plenty of very valid criticisms with the AUDL, but I think it's still young and it still has a lot of things that are not locked in place at all that can still evolve and change and get way better than they are. And so I just hope to keep seeing those things get better. I mean, I look at the AUDL from 20 15, 20 13 when I played for the Hammerheads, and not only was the talent level and the overall play way worse, but the media presence and the way they presented everything from quality of graphics to speed of quality of footage, how the rules operated. There's there's a whole lot that gets changed. That's really big steps. Every year. There were half field polls in the NLU for a couple of years, like just, just tweaking, really huge things about the sport and about the game. And so Yeah. when I look at, you know, AUDL 20, 21 is the best version of the AUDL yet. I mean, the finals were played in a huge stadium in where we DC and like in front of a big crowd with like broadcast quality cameras and graphics and this whole presentation and everything was great for the fans. But I fully expect next year to be better. And that's not just a pressure, the league that's just because the sport gets that much better every year. And all of the things you brought up and many more, I think we'll get better every year.
Tulsa: Yeah. That's interesting to think about your time from, what did you say? 2013? Yeah. So nine, nine years at the league. What in the next five to 10 years, what are the things at the top of your list that you would want to change?
Marques Brownlee: Yeah, I still think they can play a little bit with the rolls. Believe it or not. I don't want them to get too crazy. Like, so the MLU briefly had some of the most drastic changes. I mean, there was a different disc. They play with some rules with the Hatfield poles, like I said, but I think there's still room in the AUDL because they obviously introduce referees. They have a different field dimensions. They are willing to play with the rules to make a spectator friendly version of the sport. So I think they can continue to do that. But yeah, I think the league is, I mean, they, they focus on expansion. They want new teams and new markets, but at a certain point, I don't want them to get too broad with it.
I think all the teams that exist and continue to get better, all the organizations can get better. And that can be sort of the basis for making the entire experience for every player better. I've talked to, to to people who play for teams at west, or who played for some of the other markets we've played against for like, oh Yeah. we're also jealous of the experience you had with Empire. And we, you know, we wish our organization treated us like that. So I think making the existing league as it is better, instead of bigger is probably a better way to go.
Tulsa: Yeah. I mean, when I think about the AUDL and the PUL, it's like to continue increasing the quality of the product. Do you want the best players to get the best players? You want to provide something that's, a great experience for the players. And that comes with those extra things. Like only having to be a player, not do those other jobs. And I think that cycle of, you know, the higher, the quality, the more you can provide those extra things and it just continues to grow the league.
Luisa: I think what you said was really interesting about where you feel the AUDL currently is because I think when I, as a PUL player, when I think about the AUDL and walking into an Empire game and feeling really jealous of what is available to you all and the sort of promotion you get and even consistent streaming is really, really cool. But to hear you talk about the AUDL still being in its infancy is I think really interesting because I think that's certainly where the PUL is at. The first year of the PUL was in 2019, which was already how many years after the AUDL had been established. And prior to that, there was even the MLU, which provided a ton of lessons when, when the AUDL getting started and as it grew and expanded. And so to think about criticisms that often get leveraged at both leagues and where the PUL currently is in its sort of lifespan. It's just an interesting thing to think about that it is incredibly young. Men have sort of had both the MLU and the AUDL go through the journeys it's gone through to get where it is today. And thinking about how much difference that decade plus has given the men's game and accessibility to men's ultimate. I don't know if AUDL players ever really think about that.
Marques Brownlee: Yeah. I mean, I I've been fortunate enough to like have the job I've had for, oh God. How many years has it been a long time? Uh, And the fact that we're able to get better at the same task essentially every year, even though it's been well over a decade, it means there's still room to get back. And so I don't really see anything less than 10 years old as like anywhere near finished. I mean, the NBA is 50 plus years old and every year they are still tweaking to try to make things better. So that's like, I keep going back to the NBA. Cause that's the league I'm like super familiar with and follow a lot, but they're kind of all like that. They're all constantly tweaking and changing and trying to get better than last year. And if you're not, then you're not doing it. Right. So ideally the P well being a couple of years old is always thinking of new things to do better next year. And I'm sure they're already have a lot of plans of things they probably want to do differently in 2022. I'm sure the AUDL is trying to think of the same types of things and I they work.
Tulsa: Yeah. And I think there's an interesting parallel with the MBA and the w MBA. I think the w MBA hit 25 years this past year, which in comparison is still really young compared to the NBA. And I think there's similar kind of just like, it takes a long time to catch up. And I think people think of those leagues as like, well, they should be equal by now, but you know, there's a lot of, a lot of things that the w MBA is also battling in addition to being a lot
Marques Brownlee: Yeah,
Luisa: We talked about some of the criticisms that the AUDL has faced. But something that I had heard a player of color in the AUDL talk about how the AUDL offered a different experience from club purely in the sense that it compensated its players and obviously club ultimate doesn't do that. It's enormously a pay to play sort of system. And of course the AUDL being young, it doesn't offer a full livelihood, but it does offer some sort of compensation. And the argument that this player was making was that yes, there is a huge gender equity issue between the AUDL and at the time a lack of a women's league. But also the AUDL is offering, especially players of color, a way to be compensated playing the sport and especially in a sport that is so white and has a number of issues with racism and discrimination that I think we're not obviously not finished with this journey, but has started to, I think, reckoned with. I was wondering what you maybe thought of that sort of piece of the AUDL and how that maybe compares to club. How it offers at least at the very least compensation for playing in this predominantly white sport. It does offer something back for the time and the energy and the work that you put into it.
Marques Brownlee: Yeah, no, I think I was describing this to my barber or something recently where he was like, what, so what are you doing this weekend? You were playing, you played pro frisbee. I don't understand how this works. Like, do you get paid for this? And I was like, well kind of, yes. Yeah, we get paid basically, but you're right. It's, it's the opposite of club where you are paying out of your pocket to play and yeah, I've thought a lot about this. It's, for me, is in line with the youth of the sports still. As the sport gets more and more evolved, more and more people can find it. And the overall talent pool gets more and more diverse and representative of the whole population, ideally. This is in my, in my dream world. I can share this sport with as many people as possible, and everyone in the world has an eye on ultimate and knows it exists and can pick it up if they want to. But yeah, the league being, you know, 10 years old or so now is a subset of that population. And that subset doesn't represent everyone who I think deserves a chance to see ultimate and get a chance to play. So my way of helping ideally to accelerate its evolution is to continue to share the sport overall with as many people as I possibly can. To get in front of more eyeballs, whether they are able to play pro or not, whether they're able to just understand that the sport exists and go to a summer camp one year, like I did. Ideally that's the type of thing that, that moves the sport forward. And I don't want to say solves the problems, but like can accelerate that sort of evolution we talk about, which is getting the best, most diverse talent pool in the world to see that this sport is awesome.
Luisa: Since we started talking about it with the AUDL, ultimate is an incredibly white sport from league level to club level to pro level, it is predominantly white. What has your ultimate career been like as a black man? How have you navigated those spaces? How have those spaces maybe changed since you started playing?
Marques Brownlee: I can't, I've talked about this briefly, but a lot of spaces, a lot of spaces that I've been involved in are actually predominantly white. I've brought up ultimate frisbee, but I've brought up golf before. And I've... even if you bring up tech. A lot of it kind of goes the same way. I feel like through all these experiences and, and growing my skill level and focusing on my own abilities that's been my way of, of sort of focusing on what I want and almost ignoring the fact that the space is predominantly white, but at a certain point, you can't really ignore it. Like, oh, there's, Hey, there's one other black person on this, this team we're about to play. I wonder who we're matching up against this time. Like, that's the sort of thing that you can't ignore after awhile. And so, yeah, when the sport gets bigger and better and more evolved. The accessibility to the sport, ideally the funnel for people who can pick up a disc for the first time and get a quality, ultimate experience, ideally, that also gets better.
It is kind of odd to think about though, that the most desirable version of ultimate in theory, which is the pro experience, where you get paid to play is the smallest pool of it. And the funnel for most people is picking up with the school team or, or a local club team or something like that. Where does the opposite where you, you have a harder time making financial ends meet, so that's tougher you have to pay to play. That's not a problem I have a solution for yet. I mean, I love to come up with one off the top of my head, but I still feel like my best role in all of these spaces has been to just share it with as many people as possible. And ideally those ends can meet in some way. But if I talk about golf, it's like, okay, I've played golf for a long time. I can't solely be responsible for flipping that ratio or anything like that. But if people see someone like me focusing on the craft, having some level of success in the sport, it may be an inspiration of some type for them to pick up a golf club. The same thing can happen in ultimate, the same thing can happen in tech. I don't have the numbers to know if that's true or not, but I like to think that it's helping, at least in some way.
Tulsa: Yeah, it's interesting to think about kind of like the two ends of it, of you influencing and inspiring people to play and starting from the opposite end and trying to get people along that pathway. I'm curious, kind of that middle chunk of being introduced to the sport and starting finding a place to play in showing up and, it's like a black person showing up and it's all white people because the sport is so white. I'm curious about what the environment is like for people trying to break into the sport that is so white and can be so exclusionary and racist at times. And I'm curious I guess, what your personal experience has been like in different, white ultimate spaces.
Marques Brownlee: Yeah, So I bet that a lot of people in my same position, you know, being the only black kid to show up at the JV high school frisbee tryouts, and looking around and not seeing anyone else that looks like them there, a lot of them probably would have been turned off to the sport or the experience and probably wouldn't have come back. And there isn't a lot that I can do about that. But I think the thing that I can control is being the other black guy in the room and being the one that they can talk to. I mean, we are just at beach world's tryouts and there's probably five of us or something like that. And we all found each other and we've all had the same experiences where we've lined up across each other for club in many years and things like that. So I think staying, staying in it and trying to use that role model as a way to help grow the sport and grow certain, less represented groups within the sport seems to be my best way of effecting that.
Tulsa: Yeah, I like that. Like helping others not feel like they're the only one. And also I wonder if for you that can take a lot of energy and be pretty draining.
Marques Brownlee: Yeah, I don't, I don't know. I remember at sectionals a couple years ago, playing with GSU. There was an entirely black high school team there and I was like, oh, I've never seen that before. Like, I, don't know if I've seen the ratio flipped in a way or like, it might've been uncomfortable the other way around, like I've never seen you know, an all black team lined up against at any tournament.
And, don't know that there's any answer to how to spend less effort. I mean, at the end of the day, I'm fine with some of that effort. I'm fine with reaching out and connecting with other black players. And a lot of times, I think even on my college team, you know, having a couple black teammates as freshmen and seeing me as a captain probably helped with some of them staying on the team, which is awesome. But yeah, I feel like in any growing situation where like, well, the sport's still evolving year to year. I think some effort has to be put in and I don't see any better place for that to come from. So I'm happy to do it.
Luisa: Yeah, definitely acknowledging that that is a lot of labor for you and for all of our black teammates. Is there anything that any team that you've been on, club, pro, youth... have there been things that your teams have done that have helped alleviate some of that labor? Have helped make that space feel a little bit safer, work that could maybe be replicated by other teams or encouraged and expanded upon?
Marques Brownlee: Yeah, I can't speak for every black player, but I know for me a big part of why I enjoyed a lot of the experiences I had, especially early as a player were because they were so focused on the task. And at the end of the day, I enjoyed ultimate because of ultimate - the disc and the mechanics of the sport and the game and athleticism required to play and to be good at certain parts of it, that's what I was initially drawn to. And so taking the extra work off of being the only black player or trying to attract other black players and having a coach really focus on like, alright, here's how these players here can be better at this part of their game and really driving it. And focusing on that for me, that was the best thing a coach could do is to just treat me like one of the players on the team. And let's all focus on being the best possible team together. And we learned the parts of team building and leadership and skill building and all the stuff that comes with playing a sport. But yeah, I was drawn to ultimate because of the mechanics of the sport. So for me personally, that's the best thing teammates and coaches and organizational staff can do to facilitate a great feeling environment as a team is let's, let's get good at that.
Luisa: Cool, thank you for sharing.
And now share the air will take a break to talk about today's teachable moment brought to you by our sponsor, the Centre for applied neuroscience.
Tulsa: we introduced teachable moments in season one to explain the neuroscience behind some common tools and principles often used to enhance sports performance, such as visualization, routines, and positive feedback. If you want to hear those segments again, you can find them in episodes six through 10 and on the Centre for applied neuroscience is website.
Luisa: for season two. We asked our audience what neuroscience you wanted to explained And we have Dr. Wintink here to answer your questions.
Today's question is I've heard that practicing your throws while tired builds, bad muscle memory. Is this true?
I think there's, there's two sides to this, so. The first, part of it is yes. It definitely has the potential to build bad muscle memory. So from the brain's perspective, the practice like it's practice. So we're practicing things. And what we're trying to do is move a skill, from this a controlled behavior,
Mandy: so something that requires a lot of thoughts and attention to an automatic behavior. And so an automatic behavior is something that's routine or just happens automatically. So our brains constantly trying to move from something that takes less effort into something that just runs smoothly. So if we practice while we're tired, then we are solidifying that practice, that skill as a memory.
So if we're doing it in a lazy way than what we are doing reinforcing that. So we're sort of building that muscle memory, that cognitive memory, how our body moves during that time is a memory that's a, um, a motor memory. And so we would be consolidating that or forming that as a memory, in that way.
So one answer is we don't want to do that because we don't want to form these bad habits. But there's a flip side to that. So, any of us who played lots of games been to a tournament, we're very likely to be playing in a situation where we're tired. So oftentimes what we try to do in practices mimic what we will be doing in those, those important games, or even any game, right.
Where we're, playing at a different level. So there's some benefit to also wanting to practice how we're going to be playing. So practicing while tired is one of those buttons. And I think what we need to do in that situation is recognize that, okay, our brain is going to form this memory from the tired motor skill that we're learning.
So when we're practicing tired, what we need to do is practice with deep intention, and attention, so that we're doing it in a way that is not lazy. So it's okay. I am tired and I'm going to practice my skill as tired. So then that becomes a good muscle memory. So you're mimicking that situation where you're, you're tired.
Your body remembers that it's tired and is going to redo the skill while it's tired, but it formed that muscle memory when it was doing it in a more proper way, rather than a lazy way. Does that make you.
Tulsa: Yeah, that makes so much sense.
Luisa: Thanks to our sponsor, Dr. Mandy Wintink and the center for applied neuroscience for this teachable moment, head to www.knowyourbrain.ca and see what courses they have to teach you more about your brain. If you mentioned that you heard about them here, you'll get a 5% discount of course fees. And they'll also donate 5% back to Share the Air.
Tulsa: Thanks to our sponsor, Dr. Mandy Wintink and the Centre for Applied Neuroscience for this teachable moment. Head to www.knowyourbrain.ca and see what courses they have to teach you more about your brain. If you mention you heard about them here, you'll get a 5% discount off course fees, and they will also donate 5% back to Share the Air.
Luisa: Yeah. I want to switch gears a little bit and talk about your other career, and specifically start with, has your experience been being black in tech? It is incredibly white. I am also in tech in a super different way than you are in tech, but it's a similar environment. I feel like the folks on my level. Yeah. There's a couple of other Asian folks and black folks. And then once you hit a manager level and up, everybody is white. Our CEO happens to be a person of color, but prior to that, everyone was white and it still is. Everyone that surrounds the CEO is white. So. What has your experience been in this career? Because this was very much a chosen career for you.
Marques Brownlee: Yeah. It's funny. When I started this. Yes. A thing that I do on the internet, I make videos about tech. And if anyone is confused, when I started this, it wasn't actually a career. So, I happened to make videos cause I enjoyed making them and I made them about tech products and things, the gadgets, cause that's what I was interested in and that didn't really have a color. It was just, like, I like these products. Let me just dive in and talk about them. And so I get through high school, getting into college, it becomes clear that this can be a career, but it is still in tech, as you mentioned. And so every meeting I'm at is with tech companies and tech people. And it is ultimately, it's a tech space. It's a video production space, but it's a tech space. And I think that the angle that I sort of look at that is very similar to the sports that I play, which is if there can be some advantage to the visibility of my position and people who are me from 10 years ago, or me from 15 years ago can see someone that looks like them succeeding in this position, putting in the work, and being focused on their craft and happens to be a space that they also like that they can latch onto that and find some success with the same type of thing.
Luisa: Was your race ever something that you felt like you had to mask in your tech spaces either for the success of your career, for your own safety? Cause, not only is it in tech, you have an incredibly visible sort of job, and I'm curious, how you've had to navigate them?
Marques Brownlee: Yeah, I think a really big part of the job that is so visible is sculpting and just managing that image, I guess. And, and that involves saying yes or no to a lot of things all the time, whether it's the stuff that I choose to make videos about or the appearances that I choose to make in other things. And I mentioned this about a year ago in a video, but there's all sorts of programs that YouTube, especially as a company has started up to try to empower underrepresented groups. Like they've had YouTube Black meetups and YouTube Black features and things like that. And I always thought like, I should be involved with that, but I don't know. I don't know how to do that. Like, I it's, it's a very strange thought. Like I, this weird paradox of like, I want to be as visible as possible and to be able to share this thing that I do it with as many people as possible and to narrow it down to YouTube Black almost feels like it does less, it's less visible. It's hard to like put myself in the viewer shoes, but how many of those people are searching for black YouTubers versus just searching for the thing they're passionate about and happening to observe someone who's black operating in that space. I wonder if there is a difference in effectiveness of how well this helps new audiences stay engaged. I don't really know. I see these programs happen all the time. There must be something to it. YouTube is a huge company. They probably look at the numbers much more than I do. But I, it is a weird paradox of being like, I guess I'm not in those YouTube black promos because I'm trying to be involved with the entire YouTube space. I don't know if that answers the question, but it's it's a thought I definitely don't have an answer to. Yeah, that's just kind of the way it's been. There weren't always these opportunities. And I actually do think that offering those highlights and YouTube's offering their own platform for new voices specifically that are black is definitely a good thing. Don't get me wrong. But I think there are, there are other advantages to shining a light in the entire space too. So try to do that.
Tulsa: Yeah, I think I watched one of your videos maybe from last June. June of 2020 now something about the qualifier of being the best video maker or whatever, that's probably not the right time versus like the best black video maker. And does that kind of relate to what you were mentionining?
Marques Brownlee: Yeah, I think so Yeah. I, think there are a lot of people, even who aren't black, there are a lot of Asian people who come up to me in public and say like, I've watched your videos forever. And I started my own channel and my kid started his own channel. He watches your videos. And I don't know if that's because I'm black or if it's because I'm a person of color or because they're interested in tech, I'll never really know how that breaks down or how my representation of color factors into how people perceive what I make. But no matter what that number is, I think the best thing that I can do is to continue to make the best stuff I can and hope for the best.
Tulsa: okay. So Marques, you and I were at nationals in October
Marques Brownlee: Yup.
Tulsa: both of our teams played great, and made it to the finals, your team, a little closer, a few points closer to, to the gold medal. What was it like for you? Well, I'll say coming back from nationals, a lot of people were like, you got second place. That's awesome. Nice work. And I think this is hard balance of holding, like, yes, you got second, you're the second best team in the country and you are so close and in your case, one point away from being the best team in the country. And I think that that's hard. So, yeah. How are you feeling?
Marques Brownlee: I mean, that's that's the competitor inside of us. I think coaching has had a lot to do with the way I process those types of results. You only have so much control over it obviously, and it is really great to be that good, but it's really painful to be that close but unsuccessful. But I think, we had a really up and down season with pony for 2021. So, you know, at any given tournament, we could have been the best team there or the worst team there. And I think that was our mentality every time. It's like how we go into these games and the tone that we set and the way that we execute is up to us. And we happen to be really close to the best team at that tournament. And it feels like that was where I ceiling was all year long. We just had to get there. But I, you know, looking back, I'm sure I'll be ha ha, I'm not fully over it, but I'm sure we'll be happy that that we were involved in some of the highest level of play. And I've had people telling me about like, oh, that was one of the cleanest games I've ever watched, our finals game against ring, which is great. Maybe if there was like one more break, I'd feel better about it. But I feel okay.
Tulsa: yeah, I think there's a piece of it where, I mean, yes. I think for you all to play some of your best ultimate and nationals, that's the goal for a lot of teams, right. And to have made it to the finals is awesome. And I get also not being over it yet. That's fine.
Marques Brownlee: Yeah.
Tulsa: You have, a while. I think one of the hard parts for me is feeling like it's really hard to get to the finals and to get to the finals and be so close and then not reach your goal and feel like you have to do all of that hard work again, to even get the opportunity to play in the final game. Again, that's hard. You're far, it feels like you kind of just like knocked back down and have to start all over again. And yeah, I don't know. I guess I feel a little demoralized by that, but it also makes the victory so much sweeter when you get there and you'll get there. Yeah.
Marques Brownlee: That that is exactly right. I feel like the best things are never easy. And if I just walked onto this team and immediately we won a championship, I almost feel like I would be unsatisfied. I think there is really no better fuel to the fire, than getting close, but not quite there. I just need to put in a little more work. I know it's reachable, this is an attainable goal. We just have to go through this process again. And there's a lot of gamers who can probably relate to like, maxing out your XP and getting to the last level and getting really close. And it's like, oh, now I gotta do all the other levels again, just to get back to the final boss, but like we'll be back.
Tulsa: Yeah. Yeah.
So one of our repeat questions that we ask our guests is what's next for you? What are you looking for down the road?
Marques Brownlee: Yeah. It's like, what version are we asking? Or if we're asking what's next and ultimate, I mean, New York is a great city. I plan to play for New York. So that's what's next for ultimate. Hopefully I'm a more broadly applicable defender, but also a better defender. And I just want to continue to get better as a player overall, to be a more useful puzzle piece on teams I play for. As a professional, I feel like, we're just trying to make more better the way I phrase it. Usually when you make more stuff, the quality gets worse. Usually when you get better at stuff, you're making less of it. My challenge is to make more and better. That's what I hope is in my future. And more for Marques is just just trying to focus on the things I care about and hopefully find success.
Tulsa: Awesome.
Luisa: That feels good.
Tulsa: Should we play a game?
Luisa: Yeah, let's play a game.
Tulsa: Okay.
Luisa: So Marques, we usually end our episodes with playing a game with our guests. So in the first season we did 10 seconds Stall, which was kind of just hot seat. But this season we're also introducing Frisbee Feud is I think what we're calling it, which is like family feud. So we've polled our listeners on social media we've asked them three questions and they've supplied a bunch of answers. So we're going to have you guess the top answers to those questions.
Marques Brownlee: Feud all the time, so I'm excited.
Tulsa: Oh, good. first question. Name something you'd find it an ultimate player's bag.
Marques Brownlee: Cleats for sure. You'd find a water bottle of some kind. And if I had to add one more, you'd find a short sleeve Jersey of some sort of synthetic material.
Tulsa: Very specific. Okay. Let's see the list. I don't see water bottle.
Luisa: I see water bottle, no water is there. Yeah. You got water bottle.
Marques Brownlee: I was going to say like some sort of like injury prevention device, whether it's an ankle brace or like a, an arm sleeve or something, everyone's got something.
Luisa: That is there as well. There's just in terms of injury prevention, there is a lot of ibuprofen.
Marques Brownlee: Yeah.
Tulsa: Roller.
Luisa: Roller. But yeah, you got cleats. You got water bottle. Surprisingly enough, nobody answered jersey.
Marques Brownlee: Wow.
Tulsa: They did say socks. So that was a top.
answer.
So Marques, the top answer was actually nail clippers.
Marques Brownlee: really in
Tulsa: It's yeah, Kind of a shocking number one, but...
Marques Brownlee: huh? I mean, it's
Tulsa: ready.
Marques Brownlee: it's a staple, but I don't, I've never had it in the bag before. Wow. Okay. Maybe I should.
Tulsa: Yeah. Okay. What do you want to do that?
Luisa: Sure. Question is name a pre-tournament meal that ultimate players eat.
Marques Brownlee: Hmm. That's a good question. I mean, I don't have a go-to, which is maybe not great. I mean, we had a fast food breakfast sandwich before, so I'm going to, I'm going to say generic, fast food breakfast sandwiches, one. If you have an early game, I know there's going to be coffee on the list. It shouldn't be, but someone's going to say coffee. And then if you are lucky and you have enough time, you get to have eggs. That's my last one.
Tulsa: Dunkin' is on there.
Marques Brownlee: Okay.
Tulsa: So that takes you yep. The breakfast sandwich. Somebody wrote specifically cheesy eggs toast with peanut butter and banana.
Marques Brownlee: Specific. Yeah.
Tulsa: as eggs. And there's no coffee on here.
Luisa: There's the Dunkin, which could checks, checks two boxes.
Marques Brownlee: Yeah. I'll take the points.
Luisa: But yeah. Both between this weekend and last weekend, when I was also doing a frisbee thing, seeing people drink those cold brew bottles that are like big, I don't, I don't even know how much it is, how many liquid ounces, those enormous things
are.
Marques Brownlee: ounces coffee.
Tulsa: it? Wasn't water?
Luisa: It was a thousand percent cold brew, Tulsa! I saw someone, saw someone at the beach tryout, cold brew in one hand and then Pedialyte in the other.
Marques Brownlee: That's very ultimate right there.
Luisa: Yeah.
Marques Brownlee: That's ultimate.
Luisa: The number one meal that overwhelmingly was suggested was pasta. So was just carbo-loading.
Marques Brownlee: so the night before.
Luisa: Yeah.
I have eaten pasta the morning of, but easy.
Marques Brownlee: The same pasta as the night before.
Luisa: Exactly.
Marques Brownlee: Yeah,
Luisa: But the other one was Chipotle, so another generic
Marques Brownlee: that's my, post, that's my post tournament.
Tulsa: Okay. Final question. a a sport that ultimate players played in high school.
Marques Brownlee: Ooh. Okay. I like that one. Basketball, soccer, and then let me go. Hm. I want one more. I feel like there's probably a good solid top three. And I know a lot of people who played basketball and soccer. What am I missing? It's not hockey. It's not tennis. It's not golf. It's not like, is it lacrosse? No, that's not lacrosse.
Tulsa: Think more individual.
Marques Brownlee: Individual sports... frisbee, throwing. Oh, frisbee golf now frisbee this motion.
Tulsa: More like the most simple part of ultimate.
Marques Brownlee: Oh, track and field. Yeah. I'll go track and field. Yes, I did all of those sports by the way. So I should've thought of that. Yes. Track and field. That should
Tulsa: Yeah,
Marques Brownlee: at the top of the list.
Luisa: Yeah.
Tulsa: ...is number one, you were right about Overwhelmingly. And then track and cross country for the next two. And then basketball is also on there. So hit hit them
all.
Marques Brownlee: I have a story about that. For high school ultimate, we were borderline required, not really required, but strongly suggested to run track in between our ultimate seasons to stay in shape, but they didn't specify what to run. And we also had a very competitive track team at CHS. So when I went to the track team, I was like suggested based on my body type, you should be running like the mile, the two mile. And I really want it to get better at sprinting because frisbee. I did no such thing. I was training outside. I was running around miles and miles outside in the cold, and I did get in pretty good shape, but not the way I should have.
Tulsa: That's funny.
Luisa: I feel like it was good for, I don't know if it was like this at Stevens, but I do think for me, running cross country helped enormously in college when you're just playing 10 minute points and having to run back and forth. But it did screw me over for, for club. I had to really change my workout program.
Marques Brownlee: Exactly.
Tulsa: So point-wise, I don't know. You win.... ten? Three points each nine points.
Marques Brownlee: Is there a leaderboard or something? I just, I'm just glad I got some points.
Luisa: We're we're figuring out the point system. Maybe we will also keep a leaderboard.
Tulsa: I think that would be fun. Yeah.
Luisa: I feel like it's, we're all competitive, you know?
Tulsa: Yeah.
Marques Brownlee: Let me have this one.
Luisa: that's our episode of Share the Air. Marques, thank you for joining us on the show and also thank you for being our first male guest.
Marques Brownlee: Thanks for having me. It was a pleasure. And I'll recommend the show to everyone who asked me about it.
Luisa: Cool. Thank you.
Tulsa: Thank you.
Luisa: Thanks for listening and we'll see you next time. If you like the podcast and want to support us, here are a few things that you can do.
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Luisa: If you want to get in touch with us, you can email us team@sharetheirpodcast.com. We'd love to hear from you.
Tulsa: Thanks so much for listening.
Luisa: Share the Air is recorded and edited by Tulsa Douglas and Luisa Neves. It is planned and produced by Tulsa Douglas, Luisa, Neves, and Tim Bobrowski.
Tulsa: Share the Air's music is by Grey Devlin and Christopher Hernandez.
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