To round out our first season, we chat with three-time national champion and Brute Squad veteran Elana Schwam. Co-hosted by Tulsa Douglas and Luisa Neves.
This episode, we talk with Elana Schwam. She tells us about her start to ultimate, as well as her beginnings with Brute Squad, and she talks about how the team has progressed since its first championship, as well as what keeps it as one of the best teams in the world year after year.
Schwam also tells us about how the Brute community has helped her through some of the toughest parts of her life, including her cancer diagnosis, and also through a miscarriage, as well as the death of her daughter Zoë. A content warning for this episode: this episode contains discussion of cancer, miscarriage, and stillbirth. This episode also has an explicit rating for language. Thanks so much to Schwam for sharing her story with us!
This is the last episode of Season 1 of Share the Air. To listen to us during our hiatus (we will be back!), please check out our Patreon page, where you can listen to bonus content every two weeks! We already have four bonus episode out, filled with new interviews, great stories, and extra content that we couldn't fit into the original episodes.
Share the Air is hosted by Tulsa Douglas and Luisa Neves. It is planned, edited, and produced by Tulsa Douglas, Luisa Neves, and Tim Bobrowski. Share the Air's music is by Grey Devlin and Christopher Hernandez. Share the Air is sponsored by the National Ultimate Training Camp, VC Ultimate, and the Centre for Applied Neuroscience.
[DRAFT] Episode Composition
Tulsa: [00:00:00]
Welcome to our final episode of season one. Thank you for listening and supporting us in all of our guests. We wouldn't do this if no one listened, but you all have given us really great support and feedback. And it's made us really excited to do another season of Share the Air.
And also we need a break first before we do that. Podcasting turns out to be a good amount of work. So if you want to hear more from us while we're on our break between seasons, you can head over to our Patreon, patreon.com/sharetheair where we'll still be producing bonus content. If you've enjoyed listening, please share a favorite episode, or you can just share the whole season with a friend or teammate.
Luisa: [00:00:42] Okay. So before we get into our final conversation, we wanted to reflect a little bit on what this first season has been like for us and what we've taken from it and share those thoughts with all our listeners. So for you, Tulsa, what is something that you've gotten out of the work that we've put into this first season?
Tulsa: [00:01:02] One thing that I have really enjoyed, which is kind of an added bonus, I didn't quite think about is I've talked with a lot more people about things that maybe I wouldn't have talked about before. So I was visiting with my aunt a week ago and we talked about things that came up in episodes for her. She was on the first women's varsity soccer team at Princeton years back. And it was just like really cool to get into things that we hadn't talked about a ton before. And at Boston Invite, I talked with a bunch of different people and I've talked more with my teammates. It feels like it's kind of like kicked in these different conversations and different topics that maybe hadn't come up before with these people.
Luisa: [00:01:43] So a really cool thing that is come from like putting out a project kind of publicly, is that a lot of the feedback we've gotten and it's always fun to hear feedback, both good and bad. And luckily we've gotten a lot of really good feedback. But one of the, one of the coolest bits of feedback that I think I've heard about, um, I know that both you and Tim, our producer, and myself, we've all heard from some people, some feedback of this show bringing up new topics for them or new perspectives for them to, to think about.
And I think between even, you know, the three of us on Share the Air, um, sometimes a lot of the language we use or some of the topics that we talk about, or some of the topics that our guests bring up, they're not necessarily new topics for us, or they're not necessarily like new frameworks or thoughts for us, but one, there is always something new for us to learn. I've certainly learned something in every single episode, and with every single guest, but to hear about people who are starting to learn some of this language and, and start to think about some of these perspectives, it's not familiar to everyone. And I think that's also part of the point is not just, you know, starting all of these new conversations with the same people we've been talking to, but starting conversations with new people who maybe never had some of these conversations before. think that's been a really, really cool thing to learn is, people starting to think of new things for themselves because of some of the things our guests have brought up on the show.
Tulsa: [00:03:19] Yeah, definitely. Is there anything in addition to that?
Luisa: [00:03:23] Yeah, I think, I... well, I definitely said this at the start of the show, and I know that I said this when you first reached out to me about doing Share the Air. And that was that very selfishly I would get to talk to some really cool people about stuff and, that's been absolutely true. I've got, we've both gotten to hear really cool people talk about their work, talk about their lives, talk about what they do outside of ultimate and yeah, really, really selfishly. It is so awesome to hear the people doing those things, say it in their own words with their own voices. And, yeah, I'm reflecting back to our episode with Jenna Weiner and, I remember at the time she was, she was telling us about trying mixed. She was telling us about trying disc golf. And I was like, oh, like maybe I'd tried disc golf at one point. And not even thinking about clubs or anything else. And now I'm playing on a mixed team the summer. And it's just so funny to think about what's changed in the last, uh, few months of the show and, what are things that people have told us to try or to consider and now doing it and, yeah, it's, it's really cool.
Tulsa: [00:04:35] Yeah. I've had multiple people say to me, sure, this is a podcast where you talk to people who are all somehow related to ultimate, and also you could listen to this and still learn a ton, even if you don't know ultimate and don't know the sport of ultimate. And I think that has been really cool just to think about, I mean, I think it, yeah, that we're getting out one of our goals, which was to, to share more about the person rather than just the ultimate Frisbee athlete.
Luisa: [00:04:59] Totally.
Tulsa: [00:05:01] Yeah. I just think back to the episode about like, Dom's episode, we talked a lot about leadership and team building and team culture, all of that kind of stuff. And that's so applicable to sports and also work and everything. Yeah. It feels like we're getting at larger topics, which is really cool.
Luisa: [00:05:20] Totally and our episode with Khunsa, there was so much discussion of anti-oppressive education and what organizing looks like, and there things there's lessons I can still apply to all sorts of teams and all sorts of group dynamics and how to communicate and hold conversation. So, yeah, I totally agree. There's a lot of really applicable topics, even if it's not a hundred percent about ultimate. Totally. So for our listeners, if you know of anybody, in, around adjacent to the ultimate community that does cool work, has awesome stories to share, please let us know. We're looking at guests to start filling out our second season.
Tulsa: [00:06:02] Yeah, you can send along their names to us at our email, which is team@sharethearepodcast.com. Okay, should we get into our interview with Schwam?
Luisa: [00:06:12] Yep. Let's do it.
Tulsa: [00:06:13] A heads up that this episode contains swears and also discussion about miscarriage, stillbirth, and pregnancy loss. You may have noticed that this is our first episode with an explicit content rating. We chose not to remove any swears because we felt like they fit the vibe of the story pretty well. So now into our episode with Schwam.
Today, Share the Air is talking with my friend and teammate Elana Schwam. Schwam started playing ultimate UMass Amherst, then created and captain the club team, Vice, and now has been playing on Brute Squad for eight seasons where she has won three club national championships. Schwam is a melanoma survivor and a sun safety advocate who ran the Boston Marathon in 2018 for Team Impact Melanoma. Schwam is also the mom of baby Zoë who died in August of 2020. Schwam currently works as a community health primary care nurse practitioner near Boston. Schwam. Thanks for joining us on Share the Air.
Elana Schwam: [00:07:20] Thanks for having me.
Tulsa: [00:07:22] Okay. Awesome. So where we usually like to start is just talking about, about how you first got into ultimate. So yeah, if you can, jump in there.
Elana Schwam: [00:07:31] Sure. I was working at a summer type camp in Needham and a bunch of my coworkers were from Needham and at the time, and still, Needham has a high school ultimate Frisbee program. So all the guys there played ultimate and many of them went to UMass. And I previously was at this tiny school in Indiana, but was transferring the next fall to UMass. And I played soccer at my previous school, and was just an athlete. So they invited me to the summer BUDA club final tournament. And I was like, yeah, sure. Like I've thrown a Frisbee in gym class. I can do this. And I showed up to Devens and was walking across the fields, like a lost mom, in the middle of games and I played with them. I ha the best time, I didn't even know that a stack was happening. Um, but like, they were like, you're really good. And I was a goalie in soccer, so I like laid out once or twice and didn't maybe even touch the Frisbee, but they were like, oh my God, you laid out.
Tulsa: [00:08:47] The instincts are there. Yeah.
Elana Schwam: [00:08:49] And so after that day I was like, I'm going to play Frisbee at UMass. So that was how I got in. And so, I was a junior at UMass and that was my first season. And I fell in love with it. And the next year I captained, um, in my second year ever playing, and the rest is history, I guess.
Tulsa: [00:09:14] So you played at UMass for three years.
Elana Schwam: [00:09:17] Yeah. I, because of my credits, transferred in kind of a weird way. I added a second major basically in the second semester of my junior year. So, um, which was kinesiology. So I knew I would have to take a fifth year to finish that other major, along with sociology. So I also knew that I would get to play another year Frisbee. So I was not upset about that because I didn't even know that club existed. I just thought that like after college ended, it was over.
Tulsa: [00:09:50] So then how did you, how did you find out about club? Because when did you start Vice in relation to college?
Elana Schwam: [00:09:56] Well, I eventually figured out that there was club teams and my first year I played on the mixed team actually with a bunch of the Needham boys that I first started playing ultimate with. So Needham, UMass guys, and, uh, Laura Bitterman actually moved to Boston that summer, but didn't have time to try out for Brute Squad. And so we played on this team, I think it was called Buffalo Wings and we thought that we were awesome and we were not, um, we had like Brian Clarkson on our team and he was really good back then. I think he was the Callahan nominee and was in the finals at Nationals, but we didn't make it out of Sectionals. Um, then the next year I was like, okay, I don't want to play mixed. I want to play like for a women's team. And Hatch was the Boston women's club team at the time, but they dissolved. And so then I was like, well, bleep, um, I want to play ultimate. So I was like, I guess I'll just start a team. And, uh, that was how Vice came about.
Tulsa: [00:11:07] That's awesome.
Luisa: [00:11:08] Cool. How many seasons did you, did you play with Vice before joining Brute Squad?
Elana Schwam: [00:11:14] I played one year on Vice. And I was like, next year, I was like, I told everyone and I encouraged them. I was like, everyone should try out for Brute Squad. I didn't understand that other people might not want to like devote their whole entire life to Frisbee, like I did. So I was like, y'all should just try out for Brute Squad. So that was 2012 and I got cut in the first round, which was probably the right call. My like last final nagging injury was I ended up getting a stress fracture in my ankle. And so I was like, had to stop exercising before tryouts and I didn't even know I had a stress fracture at tryouts. It was after that I found out, but I did not try out well, to say the least. So I got cut that year and then I was like, okay, Vice. Um, captained Vice again and had a wonderful time. And then the next year. And I remember thinking, like, I love this team. And I was kind of bitter about being cut from Brute, as people are, when they get cut from teams. And so I was like, yeah, maybe I don't need to play for Brute. I can like have a really good time with my friends on Vice. But, Courtney Kiesow moved to Boston that winter and I played a lot of winter league and BUDA leagues with or against her. And she ended up being captain for Brute Squad in 2013 and was like, you need to try out for Brute Squad. And I was like, you guys caught me in the first round last year. And she was like, don't worry about that. You should just try out again. And so I changed my mind at the last second and decided to try out. And that was when I made the team.
Tulsa: [00:12:53] That's awesome. I didn't know that part of this story.
Elana Schwam: [00:12:57] Yeah. And I was so excited that I made the team that I didn't sleep. Like the night that I found out, I just was having dreams about playing on Brute Squad. But like, I wasn't really asleep. You know what I mean?
Tulsa: [00:13:15] That's great.
Elana Schwam: [00:13:16] Total nerd fan girl.
Tulsa: [00:13:18] I feel you. So what was that then? What was the first year on Brute Squad like for you?
Elana Schwam: [00:13:24] I was like, I'm just happy to be here. But I ended up having a really good season. I was used to, you know, being like the all star of the team in college and on Vice. And, but I like knew that probably wasn't going to be the case on Brute Squad. So I prepared myself to not get as much playing time. But I was in really, really good shape, you know, I was only 26 back then. So I had a really good season and I ended up playing a decent amount and I made friends with everyone pretty quickly. I established myself as like the silly huddle interrupter. And yeah, I loved it. We didn't do as well, but I had never been to Nationals. I never been to College Nationals or Club Nationals. So like I was the only one that was nervous at Regionals that we might not make it. Um, but we made it and it was a dream for me.
Tulsa: [00:14:23] Now I know you as the person who's like veteran on Brute Squad who like, I mean, obviously still silly in the huddle interrupter, but, but like none of, I don't sense any of those nerves, Regionals or Nationals, finals of Nationals. So I mean, was it just experience that got you to that point or teammates, or -
Elana Schwam: [00:14:43] Um, I'm still nervous all the time. Yeah. Usually before the first tournament, even if it's the Boston Invite like, I don't sleep, I am just anxious and the first point on the line, I'm like, feel like I'm going to shit my pants. And, like probably same thing at most tournaments. I can remember one time feeling oddly calm, but that was one time
Tulsa: [00:15:13] How did you play?
Elana Schwam: [00:15:14] I think I played well. Um, but I also I mean, obviously there's a spectrum that and you want to be in a certain point of the excitement spectrum. And usually I've learned kind of to turn that nervous energy into like, aggression and motivation instead of scared energy. I turn it into kind of what's the word? Instead of becoming like scared and standing in the stack, I'll just become more explosive, which usually is good. And then I mentally with my throws, like, you're really excited right now. Don't make any dumb decisions and that helps me most of the time to make good decisions with the disc since I am typically on the O-line.
Tulsa: [00:16:01] Yeah, so it's like a knowledge of, of where you're at until it kind of does it, it does it like peter out a little bit as as you get into the game?
Elana Schwam: [00:16:08] Yeah, definitely as the game goes on, I'm wanting to get out there wanting to play, not as nervous. But probably in the finals, I'm pretty nervous the whole time.
Luisa: [00:16:20] That makes sense.
Tulsa: [00:16:21] Yeah.
Elana Schwam: [00:16:21] Yeah. But it's good that it doesn't show, I guess.
Tulsa: [00:16:25] Yeah.
Luisa: [00:16:27] So you've been on Brute for many, many seasons. And you just mentioned that when you first joined, I'm guessing that it wasn't as, I think it was still a powerhouse, but it, it wasn't, it hadn't had those national championships yet under its belt. So.
Elana Schwam: [00:16:42] Yeah. 2013 was my first season. And I think we came in tied for fifth or seventh at Nationals. I can't remember. And then the following year was when we basically 2014, we stole all of Nemesis best players. So Kami Groom, Lien Hoffman, Becca Ludford, Paula Seville. We had some other people, I think Molly Hallweaver as well, um, still had Leila. So that 2014 was the first year where we were like, we could win a national championship. And we did really well that season. And then we had several close games with Scandal that year, but we never beat them. And then we completely choked. And Scandal just brutally murdered us. Um, I don't remember what the score was. So that was a huge bummer. And then 2015 was the first year that we won.
Luisa: [00:17:44] So in all of those years, I mean, it does feel that Brute Squad has only gotten better and stronger and I have to imagine that losses like those brutal murders do nothing but contribute to everyone's ability to bounce back. It contributes to the team's mental fitness, individual's mental fitness, things like that. So they've contributed to Brute Squad as a program but, what other pieces have helped build Brute Squad into the team it is today? Have there been other major trends that you've seen in all of your years on the team that have kind of led to the Brute Squad that it is today?
Elana Schwam: [00:18:22] I mean, we were super tight as a team. I never felt like there was any, or I don't know. I mean, there's always a little drama, but I don't remember any specific like big drama. I think we just had a lot of really good talent on Brute Squad. And it helps that a lot of our college players played together. We have a whole Dartmouth contingent at Tufts contingent, so we also have really good chemistry. So I think maybe our chemistry and our defense was just really fucking good. I think that was, I mean, it has been waves and waves of defenders is what Ari would call it. And our mentality that it was just never enough. So I think that may be contributed to it. Brute Squad is the only high level club team I've ever played for. So it's hard for me to compare it to anything else, but, um, and then I think it was really good for us in 2019 to lose a lot, because in the other previous seasons, we would lose very few games and it would make it hard for us to figure out what we needed to work on. And also maybe had a piece of that, you know, mental aspect, like how to come back when we're down, and some seasons we weren't regularly down on other teams. So -
Tulsa: [00:19:43] Yeah, I think in 2018, we didn't lose a single game until that finals.
Elana Schwam: [00:19:47] Yeah, exactly. So it was like, we had never been down maybe like down a couple points, but, 2019 we lost a bunch of games. And that was kind of like, yeah, we're not untouchable anymore. We have things to work on and we made a few adjustments, like putting J on the O-line and, and it worked.
Tulsa: [00:20:13] Yeah. I think going back to what you were saying about like, what has contributed to Brute being successful in the past decade? I feel like practices just feel really hard and not just in terms of like, things are challenging, but everyone is working hard and warmups just have a different feeling than like other warmups I've done. Everyone is always a hundred percent and in four lines asking what kind of mark the person wants and like really challenging individual people to continue to improve at everything we do. It's just like, uh, this environment. And I don't know how we keep creating it, but like we played Boston Invite this past weekend and like jumping into warm-ups with Brute Squad after not having done it in a long time, it's just like, oh yeah, this is Brute Squad warmups. And it just feels, feels different.
Elana Schwam: [00:21:04] Yeah. Papa Roach starts playing and everyone was just like, we're going to win this shit.
Tulsa: [00:21:09] Yeah. It might be the music.
Elana Schwam: [00:21:11] You're welcome. I've been the team DJ for every season. I've been on Brute Squad. So
Tulsa: [00:21:21] Yeah.
She's very good at.
Elana Schwam: [00:21:22] Yeah, I'll take some of that credit. I think you're right though. Practices are brutal. No pun intended, um, and that's where we learn and grow. So I agree with you, Tulsa.
Tulsa: [00:21:36] Yeah.
Luisa: [00:21:37] I have to imagine it was at, at regionals one year, but I once overheard someone on Brute Squad talking to somebody on our sideline and this person, I think was on your O-line. And they were so excited to be playing against D-lines that weren't Brute Squad because your practice is you're playing against your own D-line. I remember they expressed we can finally score points, which I thought was just what a cool, what a cool freaking thing for your own O-line players to be so excited to be at a tournament simply because they don't have to play on offense against your defense. I thought that was incredible.
Elana Schwam: [00:22:11] Yeah. That's huge. Being on the O-line, the last three, four years, we always have to remind ourselves that we're playing against the best defense in the country, maybe the world. It's very humbling.
Tulsa: [00:22:27] I mean, yes, it's cool. Like you at a practice, you'd look over at the O-line, you look over at the D-line and you're like, wow, these could be two starting lines for two different club teams. Like there's just so many phenomenal players.
Elana Schwam: [00:22:41] Yeah. I feel like it was me that you overheard lamenting on the side.
Basically.
Okay.
Tulsa: [00:23:00] Schwam, I know that Brute has been around for a lot of really sucky parts of, of things that you've had to deal with, but I wondered if you wanted to jump into maybe your melanoma diagnosis. Cause that was the first big challenge that you managed while you were on Brute.
Elana Schwam: [00:23:20] Yeah, sure. Brute has been my biggest support in my adult life. Brute community has been like a family to me. They know things sometimes before my parents do. So yeah, it was June of 2016 and I was in my third semester of my direct entry nursing program. And I found this lump under my arm and because I was in nursing school, I was like, it's probably cancer. Because when you're in nursing school, you diagnose yourself with basically everything you read about. But I also was like, it's probably not for that reason. And I saw my primary care doctor and she was like, it's probably nothing, but it is firm. So like, if you want, I'll refer you to like a surgeon or something. And, then I saw the surgeon and the surgeon was less concerned and she was like, it's probably a cyst or a lipoma, which are both just benign skin lesions. Non-cancerous things that don't cause any problems. And she was like, you can remove it. Or we can get like an ultrasound, but you probably don't really need to do anything about it, but I just had a bad feeling about it the whole time, so I was like, okay, let's get the ultrasound. Cause she made it seem like it would be kind of ridiculous if I was just to get surgery. So I got the ultrasound and I remember the technician, like I could tell she was concerned while she was doing it and she left in the middle of the exam to go get the doctor. And so like that sent up some red flags in my head and the doctor came in for like five seconds and was like, oh, that's just a classic epidermoid cyst, which is again, like a benign nothing. He was like, you don't have to do anything about it. And I asked him like a question and he kinda cut me off and was like, what we're concerned about here is cancer and what you have is not cancer. So I was like, okay. And then I just had a really bad feeling. I remember immediately after the ultrasound, I went to the surgical center to schedule surgery. Cause I was like, I don't trust that guy at all. And it was growing, and it was right on my bra line and I was like, it's probably going to start actually bothering me, I'll just get it removed. So I think probably like three weeks later, it was supposed to be like a simple outpatient surgery. They didn't have to put me under, they just, give me some numbing. And the surgery, it turned out to be a complete disaster. She like knocked over the cup of preservative chemicals that you put the tissue in and so it made her eyes water. We had to like move rooms in the middle of the surgery, and then, because it wasn't a cyst, it was actually a tumor, it was really enmeshed in my skin and in my insides on muscle and tissue. So she was having like a really hard time getting it out and there's more blood than normal and she was struggling, so she took it out in pieces and I was just like, okay. And then I think my follow-up appointment was in another week or two and I was like, well, they probably would have told me if it was bad. So I didn't really think anything of it. Finally by the time I went in for my followup, I had convinced myself that it was just benign and I was freaking out for no reason. But, that's when she surprised me and was like, actually you have cancer and we don't know how bad it is, but it was a lymph node that basically was completely taken over by cancer. And, I was completely shocked. I like used it entire box of tissues and started sweating in the room profusely.
Tulsa: [00:27:21] Were you alone?
Elana Schwam: [00:27:22] Yeah, cause I didn't think it was a big deal and I didn't know what to do and I was supposed to, I was like running late to give a presentation at school. And so I thought this appointment was going to be like five minutes. So I just had to like text my, partners and was like, I just found out I have cancer so
Tulsa: [00:27:44] Oh, God
Elana Schwam: [00:27:45] Yeah.
Tulsa: [00:27:46] They were like, yeah, it's okay, I guess?
Elana Schwam: [00:27:48] Yeah, they were just like, oh my God, Jesus. So that was pretty traumatic. I ended up having CT scans that day, and I had brain MRI the day before we left for, what was that tournament? We had a Brute tournament in Rhode Island over the 4th. Yeah. U.S. Open. Yeah, it was, it was shocking, but, I felt really good though. I just was like, I want to play Frisbee. So I was diagnosed on a Tuesday and then Thursday, we had a summer league game and Lege and I my partner, just decided to go because it seemed like the right idea. And I remember when I was out there playing. It was the first time that I didn't, wasn't thinking about cancer. And I was like, okay, this is what I need to do. Frisbee is the only time I'm not thinking about my future. So yeah, I told Brute right away, but my doctors said it was okay to keep playing. And that was like, basically my goal was to just stay busy. So I went to U.S. Open like five or six days later. And being there with Brute Squad was the best thing. No one treats me differently. Of course people were worried, but they followed my lead basically. And I was still, I was just still the same Schwam. Just continued making jokes. And I just added like cancer jokes mix, which might've made some -
Tulsa: [00:29:31] Repertoire.
Elana Schwam: [00:29:32] I didn't really care. And then I think the first step was I had surgery in July, and I met with a surgeon and they had two types of stitches they could use. One type leaves a less significant scar, but the stitches aren't as strong and the other type leaves a more significant scar, but the stitches are really strong and hold really well so that I could play Frisbee sooner.
Tulsa: [00:30:03] take
Elana Schwam: [00:30:04] Honestly, I went with and like it's on my back and under my arms. So it's not like it was on my face or a really visible area. And like, I don't, I didn't care about that. I still don't care about that. So obviously I went with a stronger stitches and they put me under, and apparently the first thing I said, when I came to after surgery was, can I play in like Colorado Cup or like, can I play Frisbee this weekend? Cause it was a week away or something like that. And the surgeon just laughed at me and said yes. Cause we didn't initially think that I was going to be able to play in Colorado Cup. So, so I yeah. I had my nursing friends steal like a bunch of gauze and extra bandages and I like wrapped my boobs with an ACE bandage because it hurt less when everything was compact. It didn't hurt that much, but like, it made me feel more secure. And also, cause I still had stitches in, I didn't want them to like open up um,
Tulsa: [00:31:11] lay out?
Luisa: [00:31:12] I was going to ask, do you remember your performance? Did you lay out?
Elana Schwam: [00:31:15] I laid out and I got yelled at but like knew it was fine. I didn't lay out on my back or on side. Yeah, stitches never opened. I think I played pretty well. I was just happy to be there. I think, at Colorado Cup was when the team surprised me with, so I named my cancer as I've named all weird parts of my body in my life.
I named it Melanie for obvious Um, and I remember I searched through Facebook beforehand to make sure I didn't have any friends named Melanie I didn't at the
Tulsa: [00:31:54] because your hashtag was?
Elana Schwam: [00:31:56] Fuck Melanie. Um, so, Brute made me a burn book. And if you don't know what a burn book is, and you've clearly never seen the movie Mean Girls, but it's basically where you like write mean things about people. So they made a burn book about Melanie and everyone wrote hilarious things about what a bitch Melanie was and, except for Vicki Negus who, uh, misunderstood the assignment and just was like "Hi, Schwamy, love you!" which is classic
Tulsa: [00:32:35] Vicki the Gem.
Elana Schwam: [00:32:36] Yeah.
Tulsa: [00:32:38] Uh, that's great. And the teal tanks.
Elana Schwam: [00:32:42] And Bitterman organized, like making these teal tanks with this hilarious picture on me, where I was dressed as Taylor Swift from her Shake It Off video, but she, I don't know, was wearing a letter jacket and I had a boombox on my shoulder. And then on the back, it says this cancer is going to get Schwamed because when I was younger, uh, a younger player, I, I had less control of my body, and sometimes I would "Schwam" myself, which meant I like kind of injured myself doing something stupid or occasionally other people would get involved. So "Schwamed" Schwamed is a verb and of like destroying or hurting others. So that's where that came from. And it was just really so heartwarming and comforting to have the whole team like behind me celebrating me, cheering me on the whole season. I mean my whole time on Brute Squad.
Tulsa: [00:33:56] Yeah. And now Share the Air will take a break to talk about today's Teachable Moment brought to you by the Centre for Applied Neuroscience. This week's Teachable Moment is about positive feedback. We often hear that positive feedback is better than negative feedback. To teach someone to do something. With positive feedback, the brain's reinforcement system is activated, which produces rewarding neurochemicals and rewarding feelings, and in turn leads to a motivation to do that thing more. This is known as positive reinforcement. With negative feedback, the brain's punishment system is activated, which involves stress and can often involve defeat and even shame. Positive reinforcement results in quicker and more stable learning, whereas punishment and especially too much of it, is less effective in getting the change we want out of someone. Imagine being the captain or coach, and you're trying to get your team to play harder defense. Yelling at them to play harder D would be punishment and is going to be less effective than using the positive reinforcement model where you point out the player who is playing hard D and then explain exactly what that player is doing. Using positive reinforcement will not only keep the player playing hard deep, but that player will also serve as a proxy for what all the other players should now be motivated to mimic. Essentially, the others can feel the rewards of that positive feedback offered vicariously. So yes, the applied neuroscience approach would say it's good practice to use more positive feedback than that. Thanks to Dr. Mandy Wintink and the Centre for Applied Neuroscience for this Teachable Moment. Head to www.knowyourbrain.ca and see what courses they have to teach you more about your brain. If you mentioned, you heard about them here, you will get a 5% discount off course fees and they will also donate 5% back to Share the Air.
So in 2019, I remember you at, I think it was at our retreat weekend in Connecticut. I remember you shared with us in the huddle that you were pregnant and I forget how far along you were then, but I know you said that you were sharing with us early because I think you put it like either way you wanted the support of the team. So maybe now you can talk a little bit about that journey.
Elana Schwam: [00:36:08] Yeah. 20. 2019 Lege and I decided, well, so when I was going through treatment for cancer, I saw a fertility specialist because, immunotherapies was fairly new at the time and we didn't know if it would affect my eggs or chances of having kids. But luckily, I mean, they don't have that much research, but theoretically it shouldn't cause any issues. But she had told me that when I was 32 based on testing, I needed to start trying. So we like went to see her in 2019. I think it was in May. I got my IUD removed and because of all the body trauma that I'd had with like having cancer, breaking my leg and it not healing for two years. I just always was worried that I was gonna have fertility troubles. I just don't have a good trust relationship with my body. We got the IUD removed and I was like, okay, we're not going to track my cycle or anything. We'll just see what happens. You know, this Brute season, I wasn't expecting to get pregnant. I was pretty sure that I wasn't going to, for no real reason other than my own anxiety. And, uh, it turned out I got pregnant right away. We were super lucky. I didn't have my period when I had an IUD in for many years. So after a month went by, after I got my IUD out, I was like weird that I haven't gotten my period and I was at work. And earlier that week, a patient came in complaining of symptoms and it turned out she was pregnant and I was like, oh yeah, like, I guess I could take a pregnancy test. And it was positive. So I was flabbergasted, was looking at the sensitivity and specificity of, of pregnancy tests. And it turns out it's really hard to get a false positive. So I took two others just to make sure. Um, and I told you guys before I had had any ultrasounds, so we didn't actually really know how far along I was, because I hadn't had a period. Um, but we guess that I was probably around five or six weeks when I told you guys. And then the following week I had my first ultrasound. And we found out there that it was, uh, an empty gestational SAC, which basically means like an embryo never really formed, or it did form, but stopped growing. But based on how high my HCG was, which is the pregnancy hormone, there should have been a heartbeat or a yolk SAC, which are things that you find in early pregnancy on an ultrasound. So we waited two weeks and went back and it was the same thing. So, they were worried that it was an ectopic because they couldn't actually like find where the pregnancy was. So I ended up having a surgical procedure, which was probably one of the most painful things I've ever experienced is not like a normal DNC where they like numb you or sometimes put you under, but I don't want to scare anyone out there. I don't think that's a normal thing that happens, but, Lege almost passed out. He sat down and then everyone saw that he was turning white and they were like, no, you lie down. You lie down on the floor. Poor Lege. So that was my first miscarriage. And I was really happy again to have Brute Squad there to support me and also to have Frisbee to take my mind off of it. We decided that, we would wait until the end of the season to actively try again, cause at that point I was just like, I didn't want to go through that again in the middle of the season. It was really devastating at the time. Now, after Zoë died, I sometimes forget that it happened at all. But that's not to say that people who have miscarriages, like it's not a big deal, it's a huge deal. Miscarriage is awful. Yeah, it's really hard and for me it was another, another thing that my body failed at or let me down in some way. So, It was hard. But then the 2019 Frisbee season ended up being one of my best.
Tulsa: [00:40:38] crushed it. Yeah.
So then post 2019 season, you and Lege decided to start trying again, and then that's when you got pregnant with Zoë that right? Okay.
Elana Schwam: [00:40:55] Yes.
Tulsa: [00:40:55] Do you want to just take it from there?
Elana Schwam: [00:40:57] Sure. Yeah, so we started trying at the end of the season of 2019 and it didn't happen right away. And so I immediately was like, something's wrong. Because that's what I do. But, I ended up finding out I was at the last day of January and we were thrilled. I was, I mean, like at first you're like so excited. And then immediately you're like terrified because I already knew bad things could happen. But I was being seen by a fertility specialist because of my cancer treatment. So I'd had some tests, where they test the hormone and make sure that it's doubling appropriately. Cause you want it to double every 48 hours and it was, so that was like a good first reassuring sign. And I was sick, more sick with Zoe than I was with the first pregnancy. So I had a good feeling going into my first ultrasound. And I had the first ultrasound at six weeks and we saw a heartbeat and I was like, okay, we did it. But there was something maybe weird with the placenta. So I remember Lege was really excited and I was basically just thinking the worst. Cause I mean at six weeks, the doctor was basically like, there's a 25% chance that everyone is going to have a miscarriage at this point. But I continued to get progressively sicker. And we had another ultrasound at eight weeks and everything was normal and I think from eight weeks to like 16 weeks, I was feeling really good. I was like, I've been through enough in my life. You know, nothing else is going to get thrown my way. Like I have reached my quota for suffering. And then the miscarriage happened and I was like, oh, well, shit. There's really no quota for suffering. But I kind of threw that out the window again. After we got the like good ultrasound with Zoe, I was like, okay, I've really reached my quota for suffering. But after eight weeks, the pandemic really started to pick up. And I remember when we basically found out that the season was going to get canceled. I remember thinking like, if I can't play, no one can play. Cause I, part of the reason I think I waited until 32 was I just wanted to keep playing ultimate and my identity is hugely wrapped around my like ultimate identity, my identity as an athlete. I now had a new professional identity as a nurse practitioner, but my passion is Frisbee. And so everything was going well with Zoe, we found out the sex was a girl, after 12 weeks, which was good because we had an couldn't come up with any boy names, we were also looking for like unisex names. But we decided on Zoe's name, like very early on. So from, you know, probably like 13, 14 weeks on I was super, super bonded with her, right away. And because we were in a pandemic, no one saw me. I mean, around when I was 10 weeks pregnant, was when I moved from working in the clinic to, I was now high risk because I was pregnant to working from home doing telehealth for 12 hours a day. It was horrible, and no one saw me except for Lege. And that was, I think, one of the hardest parts about being pregnant during the pandemic and then Zoe dying was that nobody saw me. No one, you know, we could have just taken pictures with a pillow in my stomach and like,
Tulsa: [00:44:53] Yeah. we didn't get to feel Zoe's kicks or see you two. Both of you.
Elana Schwam: [00:44:57] Yeah. And like I had pictured before the pandemic being on Brute sideline, like heavily pregnant.
Tulsa: [00:45:05] Extra large Jersey.
Elana Schwam: [00:45:07] like with a beach ball, and the team, like all knowing her. And so that was another thing that just made it really hard. I mean, when she died. So, also I had an issue two-year placenta, which just meant that, the placenta was in the front of my belly, so I didn't feel Zoe's kicks until 21 weeks, which is kind of late. And the time in between me feeling less sick, from just early pregnancy. And that time I, I became really anxious because I had no way of knowing that she was still alive and my like cancer and body trauma, anxiety just came back full force. I just started to worry that something was wrong. I just had a feeling like something terrible was going to happen. I don't know. And then like the pandemic, just being scared of getting sick, um, I think made it worse. and then once I started feeling her kick, I became obsessed with just counting her kicks and making sure she was moving enough. And my doctors were really vague about like, they were like don't do kick counts. Which is something that you do later in pregnancy or some doctors recommend you do later in pregnancy to like, make sure the baby's moving enough, but she told me not to because babies sleep. So you could have a false alarm essentially. So this is all just to say that I was pretty anxious. This whole second half last half of the pregnancy, just about her moving. Cause she slept a lot but would always kick again. And it was never like more than three hours or, or whatever, but every visit I had, she was growing appropriately. They were never any concerns. My doula convinced me to switch to another provider because my original provider, I guess, their practice at a high C-section rate.
And I was looking to have a natural birth in a hospital setting. So that obviously didn't jive with my plans so,
August 20th, the days Zoe died, I had an appointment in the morning, with my new provider in person. So I met her that morning. She was wonderful. I heard Zoe's heartbeat. She was measuring on track.
Everything was fine.And I had the day off and later that day I noticed that Zoe wasn't kicking as much, as she normally did. You know, like clockwork, she eventually started moving a whole bunch. But I had been so anxious that day, but also like, I just heard her heartbeat, I was just literally at the doctor, like how could anything be wrong?
So I remember telling myself, after feeling her move around, like three o'clock, I was like, all right, you felt her move for the afternoon. So like, you don't need to worry about it until the evening. So just like I told myself to just, stop thinking about it, cause it was affecting like my ability to concentrate.
So I went into work to do paperwork, and I was there until like five and as I was driving home, I was like, hi, I don't remember feeling her move at work. But I was like, well, I told myself not to pay attention. So I got home and I went on a walk with ledge. Cause that was, that was like our routine. Because I was so big, I couldn't do anything for exercise except walk at that point. So after work, we would always go on like a huge walk and Lege was tracking all our walks on this app and like making really cool designs out of our walks during the pandemic.
It's actually really cool. And we started driving places to then walk because like done all the area around our apartment. So we went on our walk and like, I'd been having a lot of pain, the previous weeks, walking, just being uncomfortable. But that day, that night I felt totally fine.
I felt like really good. It was eery. And we got home and in the car, I just like she wasn't moving. And so then I really started to panic cause it had been like over three hours. So I started doing all the things they tell you to do, which is like drink something cold, drink something sweet, move on your left side. I was poking her bunch. But she wasn't moving. So, we called the on-call provider. And they were like, they'll call you back in 30 minutes. And then after 15 minutes went by, I was like, I can't wait any longer. And we just got in the car and went to the hospital. And, I didn't, I was like, so anxious about so many things.
Cause like, I didn't think they were gonna allow Lege to come with me. And, so he dropped me off and I told them I hadn't felt her move and like four or five hours. They brought me to a room alone and this tech put the Doppler on my belly and it was moving it all around and I was just like sitting there, kind of laying there in shock, just like unable to breathe.
And then they brought out an ultrasound, and she like put it on my belly for two seconds, but wasn't showing me the screen and then basically took it off and was like, I'm gonna get the doctor who like, knows more about this than I do. And so, she went out and got the doctor and at this point I have had lots of bad news in ultrasounds before.
So I was like, I need you to tell me exactly what you see. And she was like, okay, I will. And she put the ultrasound on my belly and, she looked at me and she said, I'm so sorry, but there's no heartbeat. Um, so that was when, um, we found out that she had died,like less than 12 hours after we'd heard her heart be.
Um, and it was horrible. And I remember right before we left for the hospital, I told Lege that I would not be okay if she was not okay. And I started trying, but then once they told me that her heart had stopped, I was just like in shock. I couldn't feel, I just, it was too much for me. And Lege came in the room and I just was like, she doesn't have a heartbeat. And he just like collapsed on me. And they took it because down and had to get like another confirmatory ultrasound. And once they confirmed it, that was like, kind of when I realized what was happening and became hysterical. And we called our doula, and she came to the hospital and was a lifesaver.
She just like knew everything that was happening. You had to explain what was going to happen to us.I didn't realize that I was still going to have to get gave birth.
By the way, I was 32 weeks and two days at this point. So well into the third trimester. And, um, I just thought that I was going to have a procedure. and then she was like, yes, we can like give you medication to make it happen faster. So I thought that. Basically, they were going to give me medication.
I was going to give birth imminently. I like didn't quite understand. I ended up being in labor for 46 hours. So it was almost two days. I won't go into the details cause there's a lot. But,like I said before, before this happened, I wanted to have like a natural birth in a hospital, but once they told me she died, I was just like, I don't want to feel any more pain.
And I, I was looking forward to childbirth before Zoe died. Like I'm an athlete, you know, like I was like, I bet you, I'm gonna, like, I'm fucking competitive and childbirth. Like what the hell? Um, but I was like, I bet you I'm going to kick ass at this. So I was like excited to see what my body could do.
And be super like tough and deal with the pain. But once we found out she was dead, that all went out the window for me. And I was also traumatized from the miscarriage procedure and how painful that was. And I was like, well, this must be what childbirth feels like, but it's not, well, I don't know because I got an epidural. So I was not fully there, for a lot of the time. I think the most heartbreaking part was when I went to sleep the first night, I just was like my last ditch effort in this not being a reality was hoping that it was a bad dream. So I like went to sleep for an hour.
And when I woke up in the hospital, I just started screaming and Lege was amazing. He just like cuddled me in this hospital bed meant for one person whose, and I was pregnant. So I was huge.
Tulsa: [00:54:42] He's tall.
Elana Schwam: [00:54:43] And he's, yeah, he's super tall and has really long lanky limbs. And he just like, knew that I just needed to be like squeezed.
And, um, it was, it was an awful experience, but, um, towards the end, when I was a little bit more with it, Lege was telling our doula, like how good of a Frisbee player I was and was like going through YouTube and showing my Squad highlights and like showing all the nurses. And it was, I don't know why I remember that part, but I do.
Um, so they're all like, this girl is so weird.
Um, and then we got to meet Zoe. They put her on my chest and she was warm, but she was obviously silent. This calmness came over me and then, you know, rollercoaster in and out of hysteria. But, she was beautiful.
Lege and I joked to the entire pregnancy that Zoe was going to come out, looking really derpy for some reason. We just like preparing ourselves or our baby to have like all our worst features, my crooked nose and like his giant ears. And we were like, we're going to love our little derp so much.
Like we don't care, but she like had the cutest button nose and, she was perfect and I couldn't believe how beautiful she was. And she had super long legs. Her legs are in the 90th percentile. And, uh, clearly that that's all from Lege because I'm not four. Legends, like six fLege is but he's all legs.
So, yeah, and we, we sang her songs. We held her constantly we sang to her every song we knew we talked to her, but it was still really hard for me. Because she was dead and we wanted a living child. But the care we had was amazing. The nurses were wonderful. Everyone was super compassionate, as they should be.
And we spent, I was really worried about, going to sleep with her and waking up and her having like changed a lot because the babies start to degrade basically, cause blood is no longer flowing. So we stayed up until like 3:30 in the morning. But I hadn't really slept that much the last two days.
So, we said goodbye, before going to bed, which of course is the hardest thing, anyone could ever do. But they made a memory box for us with, her bracelets, like the name band,and her hat that she wore and the blanket and they did like feet and hand prints and wrote down her weight and height. So at first I was like, okay, like, I didn't even really like, know how much those things would mean to me. Until later on, because, I mean, that's all we have of hers. Like, we got her cremated, so we have her, she's been here with me this whole, this whole time. Like lost my train of thought. But, um,
Tulsa: [00:58:44] It was your doula who took those pictures of her and
Elana Schwam: [00:58:47] Our doula is also a birth photographer, so she took photos, that are like, you know, along with the things that we have are like our most prized possession. Because you know, there aren't gonna be any more photos of her. And at first, when we were in the hospital, like at the beginning, you're like, I don't even know if I want to hold her. Because you thinkmaybe that'll make it harder, but they tell you, you know, it helps to hold the baby and like name the baby and spend time with the baby. And when she was born, I basically was like, I want to hold her! And so they put her on my chest and we spent about six hours with her. And I think like, I always wish it could have been more, after the fact. Um, but yeah. Um, and basically since then, it's been the hardest year of my life by far, like this puts cancer and miscarriage to shame. I mean, we not only lost our daughter, like, you know, I lost my whole future with her.So it's been really, really hard. But I got a therapist right away, we got like a couple of options from the social worker at the hospital. And we called the one that we thought would be the best fit. And I basically like left her hysterical message just like, please.
Tulsa: [01:00:27] Help.
Elana Schwam: [01:00:28] Um, and she's wonderful.
And has
And has I've been seeing her weekly and sadly three weeks after Zoe died, Becca Ludford who, I played with on Brute for a number of years, we were pregnant together. She was about a month ahead of Zoe with her daughter Maeve.
But three weeks after Zoe died, two days past their due date, their daughter Maeve was also stillborn. And she texted me and I thought my phone was malfunctioning. And I was reading an old text that I had sent her, when I was in the hospital. But, that was crazy and horrible and couldn't believe it.
But, Becca and I, and Alex Simmons, and Lege have all become very close and it's been super helpful to have each other, to process our grief and just feel less alone because of course, I didn't know anyone who'd had a stillbirth. I didn't think stillbirth was common. And I, because I was so paranoid during my pregnancy, I did look up the statistics before Zoe died.
Depending where you look, I believe the statistics changed, but I believe the like current statistic is like one in 160 babies, which seems like that's way too frequent. And that's because it is. The U.S. has some of the highest stillbirth rates of a first world country. So I haven't had the energy, to like look into the research on that.
I think one of the reasons this has been so hard is like cancer. You can fight cancer, there's treatments, you can do something about it. Stillbirth, there's nothing to do but grieve. And that was really hard for me. I also became really bad at handling stress like that used to be one of my best skills.
And, after Zoe died, like at work, I mean, I took three months off. I took my whole maternity leave, but I wasn't ready to go back, but I didn't think I would ever be ready. So, when stressful situations start to happen, I would feel myself starting to panic and just like anxiety was sky high.
But I quit in May, which was long overdue, and to try to help heal myself, my body has never quite felt like it's my own again.
I don't know if having Zoe die inside of me has been something has been really difficult to come to terms with, and of course has accelerated the body trauma type situations. So I just wanted to take time to try to exercise and heal and be with friends and play Frisbee.
And, I'm 34 now. So, we started trying to get pregnant when I was 32. And the doctors were like, yeah, you need to get on that. So we started trying to get pregnant like three or four months after I gave birth to Zoe.
When I think a part of me has felt like having a living child will help heal this grief was Zoe, but I know that that's really not true. I mean maybe in some part it will help because I think one of my biggest fears now is that I'll never be a mom to a living child, but, now one, nothing could ever replace Zoe.
Zoe will always be my first daughter. And she'll always have a place in our family. And we're always going to talk about her. Cause it just feels like if we didn't talk about her, she could disappear. And American culture is so bad at dealing with grief and just death. But I think baby death is especially taboo.
Cause who wants to talk about that? Right. It's horrible. People want to believe it doesn't exist, but, but it does. And it, and it isolates women and people who experienced stillbirth, parents, and I think it's important to talk about and I've found it's important for me. Like I want to talk about her all the time.
Well, not all the time, but like in common conversation, it's just so easy, but I will sometimes hold back because it makes people feel uncomfortable.
Tulsa: [01:05:38] And you have to manage their discomfort. Yeah.
Elana Schwam: [01:05:41] Exactly. And I don't like making people feel uncomfortable. Prior to me is like, I've always been like, yeah, I'll just talk about it everything I mean, it's easy when you're writing a blog because you don't have to manage anyone's emotions, but when you're talking about it, they're right there. Like yesterday I got my hair cut and Lege's hair was just like, he looked like a Muppet, um, or like a Beatle in like the long hair Beatle phase. So he was like, I need a goddamn haircut. And that was like the first thing we did out in the world after Zoe died.
And I was just like a cold stone robot sitting in the chair and just being like, do not,
Tulsa: [01:06:25] They're trying to talk to
Elana Schwam: [01:06:26] Do not try talk to me. You will get an angel of death. Um, so I got my hair cut yesterday, for the first time since after she died and I was wearing a mask, even though I'm fully vaccinated because, well, I am nine weeks pregnant. And then she goes like, oh, is this your first? And, and I said, no. And then she asks oh so like how many kids do you have at like 1, 2, 3?
And I was like, oh God. And I, said, well I had a daughter, but she died. And then of course this is a hairdresser I've never met before. So, she completely shut down and was like, oh my God, I'm sorry that I asked, like, I can't, that is horrible. And like, I think it was also trying not to cry, but, it made me really sad, that, and like, she's a random person, but that's what those interactions are going to be like. I would have, and I said it's okay. Like I like talking about her, but
Tulsa: [01:07:38] Didn't have ability ask you
about
Elana Schwam: [01:07:41] And
I mean, and that's fine. She's a random person who I may never see again. But yeah, it just made me sad.
Tulsa: [01:07:49] Yeah, because like, I'm thinking, you know, if you said, if somebody says, oh yeah, my daughter's two she's in preschool, whatever. Then, then the person asks questions. But like in our country it's like, oh, somebody has died. That's it. Stop talking about them. Like apologize and try and change the subject.
Elana Schwam: [01:08:10] Yeah, exactly. I'm curious how your experience Tulsa has been with your dad and dealing with that. I mean, after Zoe died, I realized what a schmuck I'd been to like other people just I, I have this such deep understanding now for, I feel like people who have lost someone special to them. I always want to ask, like, tell me about your dad.
Tulsa: [01:08:38] Yeah. I know. It's like one of those terrible clubs to be invested in as you're in it. Like you have a deeper connection and understanding to other people who are in it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I like, I think I probably some context for people that, that listen, but don't know my dad died in 2015 of cancer.
So I have like the bit of the grief understanding and, and how much parts of it suck and how many people say things to you and they're uncomfortable and they say things and then it's like uncomfortable situations to navigate and yeah.
Yeah.
Elana Schwam: [01:09:14] Yeah. It sucks.
Tulsa: [01:09:16] So, yeah, maybe, I don't know if we could share some of the worst things people say, or just helpful things for people who don't know what to say.
Elana Schwam: [01:09:25] Yeah. I think the worst things people say are nothing at all. That to me is, I mean, not that like everyone I speak to has to bring it up to me, but like in the appropriate context or whatever. When Zoë died, Lege and I made posts for social media because I was pregnant with like a number of friends who are, and cousins who are also pregnant at the same time.
So like, we were constantly checking in on each other, like, how are you feeling? How's the baby? And like, getting those texts after Zoe died was like so painful. And then having to like tell everyone over and over again that she died, um, was really painful. So we, we wrote on social media, you know, Zoë died. Here some things we do not want to hear. And like some of those statements are, everything happens for a reason, and any sentence that begins with at least. And then we said, like, these are things we do want to hear. And like, not everyone feels this way, but I found it helpful hearing other stories of people who'd had stillbirths or miscarriages and gone on to have healthy living children.
And then later on now, I follow a lot of lost mom, or lost parent accounts on Instagram. And they're often putting out like infographics for like things to say and things not to say. And like overall someone may actually be comforted by like, everything happens for a reason or, um,
It's all God's
Tulsa: [01:11:05] Yeah.
Elana Schwam: [01:11:05] Religious platitudes, but we are not religious at all.
And that stuff makes me kind of furious. So, don't say that to me. But asking about Zoë, like, what do you think she would be like now? Or you know, how did you name her? Or what was your pregnancy like with her? Just asking you know, what do you plan to do for her first birthday?
Acknowledging her existence, basically.
Tulsa: [01:11:38] Yeah. Nailed it.
Elana Schwam: [01:11:41] What about you any,
Tulsa: [01:11:43] Yeah. I think, similar, like the, at least, like, I got a lot of people that were like, oh, at least you had 19 years with him. Like,
It's yeah, well I wanted way more
Elana Schwam: [01:11:55] 19 is not enough you idiot.
Tulsa: [01:11:58] Yeah. Or, yeah. Like like the religious ones, like, oh, God has a plan for everything. That kind of thing, was not helpful for me.
But, but I also think definitely, like, I think people are often afraid to say something because they're like, oh, I'm going to remind them. But it's like, no, you're, you're thinking about it all the time. And there's no like, oh, I forgot.
Elana Schwam: [01:12:20] Yeah.
Tulsa: [01:12:21] I think and in like I was in my, I had just finished my freshman year of college.
So. Not emotionally mature. I mean, not that I'm like fully, emotionally now. Have, have some reflection and some extra years, and I think then it was, it was like, like, I, I saw people who knew, but who didn't say anything. And then there was like this elephant in the room of like, am I going to be the one that has to bring it up?
And then like, is that when I bring it up and say like, Hey, you haven't, you haven't talked about my dad then it's like, makes them even more uncomfortable, but like, they're already uncomfortable. So it's just managing a lot of other people's discomfort while also going through my own stuff at the same time.
Elana Schwam: [01:13:04] Yeah. Which is really hard and something don't want to be doing.
Tulsa: [01:13:08] Yeah, yeah,
Luisa: [01:13:09] Share the Air will be right back. But first here's a quick word from our sponsors.
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Tulsa: [01:13:57] So after you made those social media posts and you shared Zoe and your journey with everyone, what, what was it like to put all like to share? I mean, like, I really liked, getting to know her through your posts and through your writing and all of that.
But were there people that, you know, it was hard for, or you maybe lost some connection with after the fact, like that.
Elana Schwam: [01:14:26] I think because we put that post out there, we didn't get a lot of those platitudes or things that would be like, I'm cutting you out of my life type or, it was really, it was a tough decision for me to want to sh I shared her photos on social media. Cause I mean, I think she's beautiful.
And having been now in, uh, like stillbirth community and I've seen all sorts of dead babies, like Zoe like really beautiful. I'm not just saying that.
I'm her mom, I'm not biased,but like I was driven by my fear that like she would be forgotten. and like, just like any mom would, I want to show her off.
I want people to know her. I heard through one extended family member that some other family members thought it was weird or like they said something like, why would she post pictures? Like, probably thinking that it's morbid or something. And to be honest, before Zoe died, had this happened to a friend before me and like, they'd posted their photos, I don't know what I would have thought. So like, I can understand that some people may be uncomfortable with it, but like that makes me feel really yucky inside. It makes me really sad to think that like people would ever like, be like grossed out by her photo or would say things like that.
So hearing that about one of, an extended family member made me really sad and really mad, but they're also much older than I am. So it's also like a generational type situation as well. And like, I'm a sharer. I know this about myself. There are plenty of people out there who probably wouldn't share their photos for various reasons, but to me it just felt like she's beautiful.
And like, I want people to see her and know her. I don't want her to be forgotten. And I also, I was writing a lot about Zoë at first, and Zoe's death has just like, I, before Zoe died, I was like, a happy go lucky, like super optimistic, just goofy person. I took the Enneagram test, recently, and like, my personality has changed.
And like, of course when I'm responding to those questions, I'm mostly thinking about Zoe, like, or just pregnancy in general, like I'm, I have a really realistic, and maybe pessimistic view of pregnancy. I mean, I was really, really depressed. I was in the worst place I'd ever been in my life, after Zoe died and shortly before I became pregnant, because I was losing hope.
And like hopelessness, if you don't have hope you don't, what do you have? And so being pregnant now while it is absolutely terrifying, I have hope again, I feel like I've seen those goofy parts of my personality peeking back out now and now, and again, especially when I'm with Brute Squad. Like at first it, it freaked me out a little bit to be like, oh my God, I'm just like falling right back into who I used to be.
But anyway, this is all to say that I stopped posting as much because my posts were incredibly sad and hopeless. And I started to feel like I was becoming a burden to whoever was reading them. So I stopped posting for a while, but cause I just, I don't like being this way.
I don't like being so sad. It's horrible. I like being happy. But this pregnancy is helping, helping me hold that grief and joy together. I think that's one huge thing I've learned throughout this journey is, you can hold more than one emotion. Because after Zoe died I was like, well, I'm never going to be happy ever again.
That's it. And you do feel that way for a while, but slowly you start to laugh and you learn, you accommodate you, you adjust and you find ways to hold hope and grief together. It sounds really poetic and it's not that easy. Um, and sometimes fear completely takes over and sometimes I'm so grief stricken that I can't even breathe.
Yeah, it's been 11 months today actually, since Zoe died. And I feel like, I've been making greater strides in therapy. And I think honestly, being back with Brute and having some distraction has been helpful. I think at first, I didn't want to be distracted by my grief. I just wanted sit in my grief and I, I took ownership of that and I was like, I just want to be really sad.
I didn't want to run away.
Tulsa: [01:20:16] It's the only thing you have connecting you in some ways.
Elana Schwam: [01:20:21] Exactly. I was afraid that I, like, at the beginning, the first six months I cried every single day. And part of that was like, I felt like I was connecting with her when I was sad. So I am learning and understanding now that I don't have to cry every day to connect to her and, and I'm finding, finding other ways. We secretly and sometimes not so secretly brings Zoe with us everywhere. we have like her regular urn. Which is like a custom hand painted, small cylin- cylindrical urn. And, so we, visited Alex and Becca, a few times after our daughters died because being with them, was like the only, only time we felt normal because they understood. So you can't travel with anything that can't be seen on x-ray, by air. So we got this like wooden, tiny travel urn where we like put some of her ashes in it, so, we can bring her with us everywhere we go. And couple of funny stories relating to that.
Um, the first time we went through airport security, well put her in like the travel urn and a little bag in my backpack and like, we have to have the like certificate of cremation just in case they like pull it out and are like, what the fuck is
Tulsa: [01:21:54] Or trying to dump it out or
Elana Schwam: [01:21:56] Um, and so right before we were going to trial for the first time, we like didn't have that certificate.
So Lege called to like, get it. And they sent it to us and it said, Baby Sham, because it was spelled wrong and it was like cremation number N/A, it was just like this on the shitty piece of paper. And it was like, so unofficial. And I was like, Baby Sham. Um, so Lege called and was like, oh, you spelled our baby's name wrong.
So they fixed it, but it still was this just like sad little piece of paper. And we were like, if anyone sees this, they're going to be more suspicious than they were originally. So, so Zoe's travel, earn goes through security. It doesn't get kicked out and like Lege and I are like watching it like Hawkeyes.
And then like, as soon as it goes through, we high five and then we were like, wait, we probably shouldn't have done that. That probably like really suspicious. And then, later on, when we got to the airport super early, just like, we weren't sure how much of a hassle it was going to be, turns out, not a hassle at all.
I was just like holding her in my hand while we were waiting. And then I got up to go to the bathroom. I think I put it in my pocket and like, but Lege thought that he was supposed to be holding it and like I'm halfway to the bathroom. Like probably like 20 feet away. And Lege starts like shouting at me.
And he was like, Schwam! Do you, um, do you have cause he didn't want to say like, do you have our daughter because
Tulsa: [01:23:44] You'd be like, yeah. And then people are like
Elana Schwam: [01:23:46] We'd been sitting like in this area for like 45 minutes, like without a child. And then to all of a sudden, like to be like, where's our daughter, like she hasn't been there the whole time. And I was like, I was like, oh, you mean our daughter? And I like held up urn and I was like, yeah, I got it. Then we get to Minnesota and um, we get to Becca and Alex's house and on their mantle, they have their cremation certificate. And this thing is like an award. Maeve Ludford Simmons. Like there's gold outlining the top. Like a very official certificate. And we have this like crumbled paper that says Baby Sham on it.
of
Tulsa: [01:24:36] Oh
Elana Schwam: [01:24:37] you're like clearly
Maeve.
Tulsa: [01:24:43] You two have such great senses of humor.
Elana Schwam: [01:24:46] Yeah, like can find humor after baby dies. It took a while, but you get there. So yeah, we, I brought her to see Kay's wedding. We keep her in our pocket. Sometimes we show people once they've got a little bit of liquor in them. Um, and it's like, we've taken her on all our trips. So one, question that we like to ask is what's next for you?
Tulsa: [01:25:23] What's coming down the road.
Elana Schwam: [01:25:24] Hopefully a living child. We released the Brute roster yesterday, and I'm on it. So I mean, you can't plan. I mean, you can kind of plan a pregnancy, but you can't really plan like, I listened to Randall's podcast and really felt it when she's like, just talking about relinquishing control.
Like you have no control in basically. And that's really hard. But you know, I'm nine weeks pregnant, hoping, hoping this pregnancy progresses. But, at 12 weeks I will, I would stop playing because that's when the, the fetus is no longer protected by the pelvis. It's like, there's a risk of if I were to get hit or fall, that it could cause a problem.
And obviously I'm going to be very careful. So you know, that my role on Brute will change. I want to stay involved, so become more of a coaching or advisory presence on the sideline, help out, with planning and strategy and stuff like that.
So that's, that's my hope. And if this pregnancy doesn't progress and I'll have Brute there and it will probably take longer for me to get back on the field, but I'll probably fucking be there with nothing to lose. So watch out.
Tulsa: [01:26:53] I know you mentioned this earlier, but I was wondering if you wanted to share what you have planned for Zoe's anniversary. I guess death anniversary birth.
all
Elana Schwam: [01:27:03] We don't really know what we're calling it either. I've basically been saying like birth slash death anniversary. We actually have a wedding that weekend and at first I was like, we're not going to the wedding. It's in Acadia and it's in a really beautiful place or near Acadia in Maine.
And so, we figured,led, Joey says, like to Zoe, like see you on the dance floor. So like whenever the two of us are on a dance floor, we are always actively thinking of her. And, we feel really close to her when we're dancing together. So, we were like, it'll be good to like, be at a wedding and, you know, like ignore the fact that people are getting married. Like we're just celebrating our daughter.
And then we're gonna like make a weekend out of it. So we rented like an Airbnb and, I'll prob I'll certainly bring some of her ashes and maybe scatter some of her ashes in a beautiful area. And, it'll just be the two of us. And then our wedding anniversary is like three days later.
So we'll probably celebrate that then as well.
Tulsa: [01:28:17] I think, I mean, in my experience with, with deathiversary is it's like your body knows it's coming. Um, I think planning and having some things, some way to remember them is really important and
Elana Schwam: [01:28:32] Yeah. I agree. Yeah, my body always seems to know, like the month. Like the 20 through the 22nd of every month, I just like get really sad and think about her a lot. And I'm glad I'm getting that honor her in this podcast. Thank you for letting me talk about her.
Tulsa: [01:28:55] Thank you for sharing her with us.
Yeah.
Yeah
Elana Schwam: [01:28:58] My pleasure.
Tulsa: [01:29:07] know you're competitive. Do you want to play our game?
Elana Schwam: [01:29:11] Yes. I want to play your game and I was going to cheat and like write down answers
Tulsa: [01:29:18] I tried pull some
Elana Schwam: [01:29:20] New ones.
Tulsa: [01:29:21] We'll see. We'll see. We'll see. Okay. So the game is called 10 Second Stall. And we'll ask you a question and you'll have 10 seconds from when we start asking it to give your answer. If you hit 10 seconds, we'll stall you out.
Elana Schwam: [01:29:36] Okay.
Tulsa: [01:29:37] Okay. I'll start. What teammate do you want on the line with you? Who's your all-time teammate.
Elana Schwam: [01:29:43] A tie between Lien Hoffman and J.
Luisa: [01:29:47] Or The hardest matchup you've ever had, either guarding, or being guarded by
Elana Schwam: [01:29:49] Um, probably anyone on Fury.
Tulsa: [01:29:56] Mm,
Elana Schwam: [01:29:57] Or, I mean, yeah, I think like Fury, like they do a lot of person defense and I think want to give away my secrets. Specifically Amel, um, shut me down pretty well one Nationals. So shout out to her. Yeah.
Tulsa: [01:30:17] What's your most used emoji?
Elana Schwam: [01:30:20] Um, probably the laugh cry,
Tulsa: [01:30:26] The, the sh the one that's straight or the one that's tilted.
Elana Schwam: [01:30:29] I'm the one that's straight and like that. And
Luisa: [01:30:35] Outwards
Tulsa: [01:30:35] Yeah that one Yeah
Elana Schwam: [01:30:37] The other one is like the cry where it's just like two lines going down face.
Luisa: [01:30:47] a one Uh What's your favorite tournament
Elana Schwam: [01:30:51] Um, it would probably be Kaimana, but I've never been, so a, that's a, you know, a future goal of mine.
Tulsa: [01:31:02] That's great
Okay. What's your walkout or goal celebration song, a song played..
Elana Schwam: [01:31:09] Oh. I think it changes every season, but as soon as you started saying that in my head, I was just thinking let's go!
Tulsa: [01:31:19] With the crotch spike.
Elana Schwam: [01:31:20] With the crotch spike.
Tulsa: [01:31:23]
can only have one throw, what do you pick?
Elana Schwam: [01:31:27] Hmm. I think you know, like probably an inside out back or just like a backhand bomb. Anyway you can get
Tulsa: [01:31:34] Bomb, that's what we call them.
Yeah
Luisa: [01:31:38] your Your current song
Elana Schwam: [01:31:42] I'm in like a, kind of a, a musical dip at the moment, but, I was playing Lil NAS X. Call Me By Your Name on repeat for a little bit. So we'll go with that.
Tulsa: [01:31:53] What's your favorite play that you've ever made?
Elana Schwam: [01:31:56] I guess the one that just comes to mind, is the layout that I got in Pro Flight against Scandal.
year. That
That one felt pretty good. Cause I think like the last time I was in a game where I had to like a huge layout opportunity on film, I caught it and then dropped it. Um, like when I was sliding on the turf, it like ripped out of my hands.
And that was something that I think about probably on a monthly basis, just have so much regret. Against Molly Brown in 2017 I think. I'll never forget that fucking drop.
Luisa: [01:32:41] Who is someone you're grateful for.
I'd say Lege. Elana Schwam: [01:32:47] He's been, poor guy, you know, like, we decided we were going to get married two weeks. Like we had a casual conversation about it two weeks before I was diagnosed with cancer. I just, so he just walked in to a ticking time bomb with me. Um, I gave him an out, when I was diagnosed with cancer and he was like, what the hell are you talking. Um and he's just been so wonderful and so supportive. And like isn't, hasn't made me feel bad for my grief. And everything. Love you boo!
Tulsa: [01:33:28] Yay
Yeah
Luisa: [01:33:31] Most embarrassing fashion trend you've ever worn embarrassing
Elana Schwam: [01:33:34] Oh my God. not very trendy. Um, um I was wearing a lot of plaid because of Brute Squad. So I just looked like a straight up like a lumberjack lesbian the years. Thanks to Brute Squad so, that that's a bad thing, but, yeah that's my answer.
Tulsa: [01:34:04] That's 10 seconds stall. Nice work.
Luisa: [01:34:07] You it?
Tulsa: [01:34:08] Yeah.
Elana Schwam: [01:34:09] All
Luisa: [01:34:09] You did you
Tulsa: [01:34:10] Yeah
Elana Schwam: [01:34:11] I definitely spent longer than 10 seconds on almost every answer, but
Tulsa: [01:34:16] W we're generous and you started talking,
Luisa: [01:34:18] Yeah. As long you start start providing an answer in the ten seconds
Tulsa: [01:34:23] Yeah.
yeah.
Elana Schwam: [01:34:25] Cool
Tulsa: [01:34:25] yeah.
Well, thank you schwam so much for being willing to come talk with us and share so much and share Zoe with us and everyone. And I hope you get to take a little emotional break after this!
Elana Schwam: [01:34:42] I'm uh, I think I'm going to go to first BUDA game
Tulsa: [01:34:47] Go play it out. That fitting.
Luisa: [01:34:52] I think this is like really our meeting and talking actually. So this is I'm is like a lot, but, um, I mean, I really team, this like little podcast really appreciates it and I'm sure it's like nothing. This isn't like a surprising thing for you to hear it all, but, um, okay. Yeah, I can just that I can feel the, in the like depth of your grief also the depth of your love, and it's just very evident that there will be oceans of love for Zoe forever, and yeah just thank you so much for sharing And yeah, just thank you so much for sharing.
Elana Schwam: [01:35:37] Thank you for saying that, that, I mean, that does mean a lot to me, that you say that and I'll, that'll never get old hearing that. So thank you so much and thank you for being open to listening to it. am a sharer. Comes pouring out of me. You can't it.
Okay Thank you again for listening and for all your kind words, your downloads ratings and reviews.As always follow us on social media to stay up to date on bonus content and to hear when season two will be kicking off.
Tulsa: [01:36:17] If you have any ideas for who we should interview or feedback for us, when we come back in the second season, please email us at team@sharetheairpodcast.com.
If you want to give us compliments about how great our podcast is, you can email us those two, or you can leave us a review and a five star rating on Apple Podcasts. We really like getting told when we're doing a good job.
Luisa: [01:36:36] Make sure to check out Share the Air on all of our socials at Instagram and Twitter and Facebook. You can always find more Share the Air content on Patreon if you w ant to listen to more episodes and hear from more guests, and just hear other things that we didn't get to include in longer episodes.
Thanks so much for listening.
Tulsa: [01:36:56] Share the Air is hosted by Tulsa Douglas and Luisa Neves. It's produced and edited by Tulsa Douglas, Luisa Neves, and Tim Bobrowski.
Luisa: [01:37:04] Share the Air's music is by Grey Devlin and Christopher Hernandez. Thanks again to our sponsors, NUTC, VC Ultimate, and the Centre for Applied Neuroscience.