This week, we talk with Jackie Lai, one of the founders of Indy Red, one of the first PUL teams. Tulsa and Luisa also discuss their conflicted feelings about supporting their favorite athletes at the Olympics. Co-hosted by Tulsa Douglas and Luisa Neves.
This episode, Share the Air talks with Jackie Lai. She discusses how she helped to found Indy Red, of the first PUL teams, and shares some stories about the beginning of the PUL and it's original teams. Her, Luisa, and Tulsa also have a conversation about how professional women's ultimate has improved accessibility for the sport, and has helped with improving visibility for women in the sport. Jackie also tells us about her passion for her job working with Big Brothers Big Sisters.
Tulsa and Luisa also share their thoughts on why they are conflicted about supporting their favorite athletes in the Olympics, and the controversy that comes along with all Olympic games.
Share the Air is hosted by Tulsa Douglas and Luisa Neves. It is planned, edited, and produced by Tulsa Douglas, Luisa Neves, and Tim Bobrowski. Share the Air's music is by Grey Devlin and Christopher Hernandez. Share the Air is sponsored by the National Ultimate Training Camp, VC Ultimate, and the Centre for Applied Neuroscience.
Luisa: Hello, everyone. Welcome back to episode nine of Share the Air. We're almost at the end of our season. Next episode will be the Season 1 finale, but we still have a few more things before then, and we have some Olympics talk that we want to share with you all today.
Tulsa: Yeah. So when this episode comes out, we're recording this a couple of days before the episode will come out, the Olympics will be in full swing. And I think we just want to maybe share a little bit for other people who are feeling similar apprehension maybe is the word around how to support and participate in the Olympics. And for other people who haven't thought about it, maybe just a little bit of background on the widespread impact that the Olympics has on the host country specifically.
Luisa: Yeah. So Tulsa, I know that you are a huge fan of the U S women's national soccer team. And you've been weighing and doing this sort of back and forth with how to support them at the Olympics.
Tulsa: Yeah. And there's like a ton of female athletes that I've been wanting to support like Simone Biles is crushing it. Naomi Osaka. There's just like so many women. Yeah. Allyson Felix, doing cool things. I'm torn because I want to support them. And also I've just been learning more and more about the negative impacts of the Olympics, specifically in Tokyo this year, but definitely things that have existed in other host countries in previous years. And I think it's like, yay, whatever country is hosting the Olympics, but for a lot of people in that country, it's not as great. There was a poll in May and 83% of people in Tokyo said that they didn't want the Olympics to happen. So it's tough to think about so many people in the host country not wanting the games to happen, and yet we're still pushing and there's this whole COVID piece. The vaccination rates in Japan are low and moving slowly. And so far 67 athletes at least have tested positive. So it's tough to think about the impacts of COVID on all of the people in Japan who are working to make the games happen.
Luisa: So Tulsa, you did a bit of research that you shared with me, so thank you. Um, but you talked about how many people, for the Rio games that were displaced in order to build the venues for the 2016 Olympics and the number that you had here was 77,000 people. And I have family from Brazil and I remember driving through the countryside. And I remember we like turned a corner and the enormous structure, the enormous venue that was there, that had almost erased everything else around it, just for these like two months that they're really being used by Olympians. And to displace so many people and to make use of land and space that's really only going to be used for such a small period of time is, uh, it just feels, it feels so wasteful. It feels so disruptive. And my understanding is that many of these people do not get to return to a semblance of their home and there's many people still, even years later their lives are still disrupted by the Olympics of of 5, 10 years ago.
Tulsa: Yeah. And the people that are often displaced the housing that is often taken down and the areas used for building these giant Olympic structures that only get used for so long. Most of that housing is public housing. So it's people that get pushed out that are already in the low-income public housing and it's just like terrible. Yeah. So, so there's that piece of displacement. And then there's another piece of displacement. So in for the Tokyo Olympics, as they're getting ready to submit their bid and the Olympic commission is coming around to like, look at Tokyo and assess it for the next Olympic site. The city of Tokyo did all of these sweeps of unhoused people, they, they kicked them out of the parks. And just sort of like removing tents and removing these unhoused people's homes. And then as they got selected and then as they go to develop these sites, oftentimes it's public land, public parks that get turned into these Olympic sites. And so again, it's kicking out these unhoused people from the places that they've been living. Yeah, and, and another piece of the displacement and the unhoused people sweeps that happened, is that there's this heightened policing, to kind of like, quote unquote, make more security and as the Olympics happen and there a bunch of new laws passed that tries to make things more safe and secure. And often it leads to a lot of crackdowns against local people who are living there and who they're trying to just push out ahead of the games to make it look a certain way.
Luisa: Yeah. I saw it in person with the Rio venues, but first removal of people, it just number one is so problematic, but these venues afterwards, for many of them, there's not even like any sort of sense of pride for the country. Like in Rio, these venues are more or less abandoned structures. It's, it's pretty unbelievable how wasteful these, buildings become.
Tulsa: Yeah, yeah,
Luisa: You had a note here about Tokyo organizers branding this, 2020 slash 2021 games as the recovery Olympics, with respect to the natural disasters that Japan has been through. Can you talk a little bit more about that?
Tulsa: Yeah. So I think, one big piece of it is that some people in Japan feel as though this Olympics is a push to celebrate, like, look how far we've come since these 2011 natural disasters. And for those people, they also feel like they are not fully recovered and all of them, the money going into hosting these Olympics, there's just billions and billions of dollars going into making the Olympics happen. And they would prefer that money and those resources get put into actually recovering and people being able to get back into their homes 10 years later. The torch relay is going through 11 different towns that were hit by the disaster, but it skips over this one town called Futaba. It's the only one of these 12 towns that people basically can't go in and they have to like wear these radiation trackers and it's, it's still unsafe and not fully cleaned up. And the people living there are upset that the games are being branded as like, oh, we're recovering, we're recovered. Here we're hosting the Olympics, and yet the town that they live in, they still aren't able to return to their home.
Luisa: So not only are there these really enormous problems for the host country and the people of that country, but there's also been a lot, a lot, a lot of conversation around activism at the Olympics and how athletes are allowed to express any sort of their beliefs, their identities. There's been a lot of strict rules about what they are allowed and not allowed to do and surprise more often than not these rules are usually fairly racist and restrictive of, more often than not, black folk.
Tulsa: Yeah. So the Olympic rule used to be that there was no kind of political or religious or racial propaganda demonstration, any of that allowed, in any of the sites or venues, anything like that. The IOC announced a new rule somewhat recently that said, athletes, they still can't do any sort of demonstrations during any of the medal ceremonies, opening and closing ceremonies, during any competition, but they can wear a shirt or kneel or anything before the start of a competition. So it's a slight improvement. Still, not, not much. The United States has said that they won't punish any of their athletes if they go against any of those IOC rules, which is also a step in the right direction. But there's this quote from Kirsty Coventry, and she's an Olympic swimming champion from Zimbabwe. And she leads the IOC athletes commission. And she was talking about how, regardless of nationality, all athletes must be treated the same. And she said, "There are not many times in the world where anyone can stand on a podium and be respected. It's really important to have the podium be clean and neutral. No one should ever be made to feel inferior on a podium." And I feel like, she's this white woman. And I feel like she misses the point that like...
Luisa: It's not... there's such a disadvantage, for brown and black people off of a podium that for us to come to something like the field of sports and say that everybody is on level footing and we're all just seeing who's the best in this like vacuum is, it's just, it's ignorant.
Tulsa: It ignores the experiences, the full experience of the person. Yeah. Yeah. So I think she missed the mark on that one. And the IOC isn't allowing athletes to wear apparel that includes the Black Lives Matter slogan. So they can wear things that say like peace, respect, solidarity, inclusion, but they can't wear something that says Black Lives Matter.
Luisa: Yeah. And so not only are there are these really explicit rules about how to, the ways in which you're allowed to essentially express yourself, but I also feel that there's a lot of not so explicit or a lot more subtle rules that uphold some of these more racist or oppressive structures. So for example, there's been a number of women, especially in track and field sports who have been barred from either Olympic trials, the games itself, other races outside of the Olympics that you would need in order to either qualify or gain attention or even just train, but have been barred because of things like too high testosterone levels and now that we've got a couple of cases in it's more often than not Black women, women from African countries, that tend to be the women on the receiving end of these sorts of judgements that, oh, they have too high testosterone levels, it's not fair for them to compete in these races, which I would just like to say is ridiculous. Is the whole field like sports in general, the whole point is to figure out who has the best combination of unfair advantages, both like physical and training wise. So it just is, it's just ridiculous. But obviously then not only is that a racist rule, it also, it also affects trans folk, um, in the sport, and creates dangerous structures for them as well. That's one example of a slight, it, it's not really coded into it. Like, oh, you can't speak about race or politics or anything like that. But it's, it is something that still affects black and brown people at a disproportionate rate than it does white athletes. Also really recently, Sha'carri Richardson, getting flagged for a, a marijuana violation, essentially.
Tulsa: PED, supposedly.
Luisa: I just... at least, at least in the U.S., there is absolutely a narrative of marijuana being a drug of lazy people and it encourages a lack of productivity, and then to turn around and ban a woman from playing because it's a performance enhancing drug. The, the imbalance here is, is just on it's on full display. But yeah, so there are, there are other rules that are not as explicit. And I think that is also something that we need to look out for, not just at the Olympics, but in our own sports. What are systems? Where are structures? What are rules that are in place that are not explicitly racist, I guess, or not explicitly oppressive in that sense, but what is the pattern of who they target? And who is at risk because of these, these rules, these restrictions.
Tulsa: Yeah. So a lot of, a lot of downsides to the Olympics that we're holding in a giant both and. Yeah.
Luisa: But I think that both and is really important. Like we are, we are kind of sitting here and highlighting a lot of the negativities around the Olympics and a lot of the problems that they bring. And I would argue that the both, and is also that there is so much hype for the Olympics and there's a lot of national pride. And so we're providing that...
Tulsa: A lot of a lot of visibility of women's athletes.
Luisa: Totally. So I don't know if you have advice for how to, how to cheer for your...
Tulsa: I hope some listeners will please write in if you can provide guidance on how we do this.
Luisa: This is what happens if we don't get enough listener questions. We're gonna, we're gonna make our own conversations.
Tulsa: our problems. Yeah.
Luisa: Exactly. But yeah, hopefully some of these thoughts give our listeners, uh, new things to think about. Hopefully it prompts new questions and new thoughts for them to bring to us so that we can continue the conversation.
Tulsa: Yeah. Okay. Now let's get into our interview with Jackie Lai.
Luisa: Today, Share the Air talks with Jackie Lai. Jackie started playing ultimate in college at Purdue University. She's since played with clubs such as the Chicago Nemesis, Indy Rogue, and Los Heroes. In 2018, Jackie helped form Indy Red, one of the five original teams of what would become the Premier Ultimate League in 2019. For the 2020 PUL season, Jackie made the move from roster player to Red's coaching staff, and will be returning as a Red coach in 2021. Outside of ultimate, Jackie does grant, executive, and EDI work for Indiana's Big Brothers, Big Sisters, and as a big sister herself. Jackie, thanks for joining us on Share the Air.
Jackie Lai: Thanks for having me.
Luisa: So we usually get started just to like get warmed up, we ask all our guests, how did you get started playing ultimate and what were the formative ultimate years? What did they look like for you?
Jackie Lai: Yeah. So, I got started playing ultimate in high school. I, uh, went to Nico valley high school, which some people know actually turned into a pretty strong high school program. I had Java or new step a hereon as my anatomy teacher. But I also made friends with a bunch of, people who played on the club ultimate team and at NYCLA, uh, my senior year. And unfortunately I couldn't play in high school, because their club happened in the spring and I played badminton in the spring.
Tulsa: No way. Sorry. I love badminton.
Jackie Lai: You, okay. I will -
Tulsa: - love badminton.
Jackie Lai: I was going to, I, this was one thing I was going to say my co-captain senior year, she also went on to play ultimate at Northwestern is a hammer as well, and played for Nemesis, I completely believe that bad mitten translates pretty well to like, throwing for -
Tulsa: Yeah, seriously.
Jackie Lai: Because of the wrist, like
Tulsa: It's really a lot of snap.
Jackie Lai: Yeah. Yeah. Um, but yeah, so I was actually training with them, like in the winter and That's when I learned to throw a flick. I like worked on it for a week straight until I finally got it. Walked around the school with a, with a Frisbee in my hand and spun it on my finger, like I thought it was really cool. But yeah, so after that I played in like the Naperville summer league with some friends, and then knew that I was going to play club ultimate at Purdue when I went to college, so I was already set on that and I don't know, I know it sounds really cheesy, but I was drawn to ultimate because of the spirit of the game, and throwing. I love throwing, the challenge with throwing and all that. But for me, spirit of the game kind of felt at least unique to ultimate, and really drew me in.
Luisa: Okay so you started playing at Purdue. What, what was the team like at Purdue? And then how did you get started playing club ultimate after college then?
Jackie Lai: I think my general personality is, once I, once I basically fall in love with something, I go 200% at it. My first year playing was a little rough, honestly. I actually didn't go to a single tournament in the fall because I had gotten football season tickets for Purdue. And I was like, I spent this money. I can't waste it. So, and like the, all the tournament weekends fell on football game days. So I actually missed all of the fall tournaments. And then finally went to my first tournament in the spring, which I think my first tournament was Chicago Invite 2010, and then the next one that I actually played a couple of games and stepped into a hole and really spread my ankle really badly. And then I had to kind of sit out for several weeks, wanted to try to be back for Sectionals, but unfortunately I wasn't quite there yet, but in terms of culture wise, it seemed my freshman year. It, like I said, I was, it was a little rough cultural-wise honestly. Um, you know, I think there are a lot of vets who had expectations of what they wanted the team to be , and there, there was some, you know, like some yelling reviews when they didn't do the right thing. And I think I ended up being probably the, one of the only rookies from my class. Stayed through their college years. So we finished second to last at sectionals. We didn't really win many games. And, and then I think the next year leadership involved, and anybody basically from previous years made a promise that we were going to completely overhaul the culture of the team, and make it some one that was really uplifting. Really patient make sure that we were teaching rookies well and including them and obviously like, making it a more positive atmosphere. And so from there, I mean, I don't know. We, we, we got better bit by bit and by my senior year, I think we got third at regionals last to Northwestern back when they had Leon Hoffman and they went to
Tulsa: That's a tough matchup.
Jackie Lai: Yup. Yeah. There's a pretty funny picture of one of my teammates getting just like three pictures in a row skied by Lien.
Tulsa: There are many of those pictures of a lot of people. Yeah.
Jackie Lai: She said that that was actually her first big jump after she came back from tearing her ACL. Those pictures. Yes. I was pretty proud of the way the team progressed, the year after I had graduated from college, they actually went up against Michigan and the game to go to nationals. So the turnaround from Purdue, what it was to what it became and what it's consistently been a solid team at Regionals has been, has been good to see in general and just the growth of, you know, high school players coming to college and having experience playing is wild.
Tulsa: Yeah. I mean, I feel similarly looking back at my college team, I feel like proud of, of where they are now. But I think that culture shift, when I came into my college team, there was a pretty positive culture and environments. So I'm curious, how you even started to tackle that. I mean, you said you had kind of a core group of people who wanted to change it, but like where did you begin?
Jackie Lai: Yeah. good question. I think it was just, captains did a good job of making sure that feedback was told in a good way. I feel like everybody on the team knew that the last year was rough and they didn't want to repeat that. And, and leadership was pretty clear about , we don't wanna, we don't want to scare people off and we want to make sure that people feel welcomed. We're going to do everything we can, to make sure that people are having fun. Cause at the end of the day, we weren't skating and team and everything to be fun for people. So I, I don't know, our captains did a good job, kind of turn that around and any basically returning that, also kind of knew their role to help, shift the culture.
Tulsa: Yeah. I think it says something about knowing what you don't want and knowing what you do want and maybe not necessarily knowing exactly how to get there, but there's some sort of path of, we don't want to do this, so we'll try and do something different and it worked out. Yeah.
Jackie Lai: Yeah. And working out, or we got a bunch of really good.
Tulsa: You attracted
Jackie Lai: sudden,
Tulsa: people. Yeah.
Jackie Lai: one. Yeah.
Tulsa: Yeah. So I had a question going back. You mentioned that when you fall in love with something, you do it 200%. At what point, so it sounds like that first year of ultimate Purdue is kind of, there were challenges. You stuck it out through, and you kept playing through that first year. So what, at what point did you fall in love? And did you realize , oh, I want to keep doing this. Even if some parts of this are hard.
Jackie Lai: I had my mindset as I was going into college. And I knew I was going to give it 200%. I mean, I know I didn't go to any of the fall tournaments, but I tried to make as many practices as I humanly could. While practices sometimes may have been rough, the people and my teammates really kept me around. I would say in general, I'm a very people centered person. I love my relationships with people. And they are what keep me going. And so once I had formed those relationships, I mean, I don't think there is any turning back for me. And and even though I was injured, I didn't go to tournaments.
And then I was injured in the spring. Funny enough, I ended up getting, working at a
Luisa: Okay.
Jackie Lai: for the team purely because like, I just showed up to all the practices as well as injured and just kind of , was there throwing or whatever. I just wanted to be there with them, and, and all my teammates, as is with everybody, I think, flaws and all, were great people.
And, you know, the pandemic has done a lot. Sometimes I question I was questioning my love for ultimate and whether I want it to continue on with it, based on a lot of things that happened during the pandemic and just not being able to play, but with hopes of playing again, I feel like, I feel like I've really started to fall back in love with ultimate again, philosophy.
Tulsa: Yeah. I feel similarly. I've played, I've played twice now in the past couple of weeks. And
like, I kind of felt maybe a little bit ambivalent and you know, it'd been a year plus, and then I played and I was like, oh yeah, I really do like this sport.
Jackie Lai: I, uh, made the decision to finally, I was like, I'm going to go to nationals, masters nationals. , and then once I made that decision, I was just already, there's like a total shift. I was so excited, so ready to try and get in some sort of shape for it, but
Tulsa: that's exciting.
Jackie Lai: By the way, Luisa I didn't answer your other question about getting into club.
Luisa: Oh, sure. Well, whenever you're ready. Go ahead.
Jackie Lai: Yeah, so I, I didn't play club when I was in college, except I played for a not very good mixed team called Lafayette street dots. So it was a bunch of like Purdue people and we went to sectionals and that's about it. But that was my first club experience. And then after I was, I was done with college, I decided to go to the Chicago women's combine and, and I didn't go to the Chicago women's combine because random my apartment building
Tulsa: oh God,
Jackie Lai: Um,
Tulsa: bad timing.
Jackie Lai: yeah, there was a hole that was, it was really bad.
But, my friend Carol, who currently, who is, um, my co-captain senior Batman and played on nemesis, knew me. And so it was like, you should just invite her to the tryout and, and they kept us. We're cool. with that. So then I tried out and I know I was really invested in ultimate then. And so I was like, I am totally going to travel from Indianapolis to Chicago to play and I'm going to be like all in, no matter what.
Luisa: That 200% to, to make the Trek.
Jackie Lai: Yeah.
Yeah.
Luisa: How many seasons did you play with Nemesis.
Jackie Lai: So I played with them for two seasons, and I would say that it honestly was probably to the toughest years of my life. I was, doing teach for America, in Indianapolis at the time. So jumping all of a sudden to teaching for the first time with no experience, uh, while, while going to grad school for like part-time for my master's of teaching, which is part of, kind of that transitioning into teaching program. And then being a travel player for Nemesis. and to be like completely honest, I, I just in general have always struggled with my confidence on the fields. And so it was a jump going from going from a smaller college team that, you know, toughed it out and like, but only had like 11 players on the team.
And so you have to play a budge, , to all of a sudden playing for obviously a National's level team with the, with a ton of amazing talented players and not necessarily knowing what your role was or where you fit in. And honestly, being a little, like a little scared, a little pretty, not confident in myself, going into all of that.
And so, you know, I, I rode the bench a lot, um, with Nemesis during my two years, learned a lot and like throughout all of this, I obviously wouldn't go back to change anything, but they're definitely two really difficult years for me. And by the end of it, honestly, my confidence had pretty much plummeted.
And so I decided to, I don't know, step back a little. And the Indianapolis mixed team reached out to me and asked if I wanted to, to play for them, Liquid Hustle. And I think I, I just knew I would have a little bit bigger role. I was looking to fall in love with ultimate a little bit more again, because it was a really rough two years. And so I was going to play for them. And then I, and then I tore my ACL. I ended up kind of being an assistant coach for them and being able to spend the entire season with them was great because all my college teammates and friends were on Liquid Hustle that season. Um, and they did amazing, they lost to Steamboat in the semis and got third at Regionals. So I feel like that's the same as in college, funny enough. But yeah, at the end then after that, Indianapolis Rogue started, the women's team.
Luisa: I think the, the story you just told of like, kind of a, a college star, kind of having
show
I go, come on.
Jackie Lai: only like second team, great. All region or whatever.
Luisa: I think that like, I think teams were, if, if you were able to make that sort of progress to go from, like the type of team that you said it was with the results of the had even your freshman year to the type of results that you had your senior year and some of the culture shift, I think that's, yeah, I do that you a bit of a star. But I, but that that sort of, that sort of space, like a team that's definitely built around you. I think we've talked to a number of people at this point and who that's kind of been their experience as well that they have that team that's kind of built around them and that, you know, they're relied on for a lot. And then they get to a bigger club team because they are really talented. And they do have the skill and the drive to do that work and stuff, and they get to this bigger team and it's really, really hard. I think we spoke to, I think it was, I think it was in our first episode where we, we talked a ton about how it is part of the leadership's role to figure out how to. Incorporate and make those new players feel comfortable. So It's a bummer that you through two years of that and stuff. And I'm curious what, what you did afterwards to build some of that confidence back.
Jackie Lai: Obviously tearing my ACL. The year after ended up being a little rough, but, I think, I honestly, I wanted to get back. to playing, playing with my friends, having fun. Maybe not putting so much on me in terms of travel. So staying in Indianapolis and playing and I had a blast coaching and following along all season with Liquid Hustle and then, you know, the year after Rogue, it was kind of built around a big part of the core was where my Purdue teammates and my friends like long-time college friends.
And so, so I felt really comfortable. You know, we had played all through college together and we, we knew each other's strengths and weaknesses and how to build each other up. And it just felt very, very natural and, and easy for us to be able to have a solid team. I think our first season we ended up third, third region third at regionals.
Last Nemesis, I think in the, in the technically I guess the, the game to go to nationals. But Yeah. It was just nice to be with familiar people having fun again
Tulsa: I don't know.
Jackie Lai: I don't know.
how you both do it, but the pressure of being on a, on a national level team is gets to you and you, and you need to exude a certain level of confidence to be able to be successful at it.
Luisa: I think I kind of love that, you could rely on community to help build back that confidence. I didn't actually know that that's how Rogue started that it was a Purdue team.
cool.
Jackie Lai: Yeah. we had a strong kind of core of Purdue players And then, we kind of wanted our own ones team and then met with people and people seemed interested and , just took off.
Yeah.
Luisa: How long have you, cause I know that you have played one season with the heroes Lowe's heroes. So how many years have you played with rogue then?
Jackie Lai: Um, So it was two years with rogue and then one year with, with heroes.
Luisa: What's rogue been like? what were major differences from even just Nemesis.
Jackie Lai: You know, I think that the expectations for a gorilla or we obviously want it to be a solid team and do well at regionals. We also knew being in the great lakes that you had, your powerhouses of nemesis and rifle , who were going to be pretty tough to topple. I wouldn't necessarily say that rogue ever had kind of like a five-year plan, making it to nationals at a certain time, but it, it, it was more just like, this is a great community of women who want to be able to play together and play women's ultimate based in Indianapolis.
You know, I think Indianapolis may have had a couple women's teams in the past that were pretty short-lived, but never, never had. One that, continued on past maybe one or two years. And so being able to, to have that woman's team and, and hopefully, I mean, still the hope is to build up a women's ultimate in Indianapolis. it's obviously a step in a good direction. Share the Air will be right back. But first here's a quick word from our sponsors.
Tulsa: Share the Air is sponsored by the National Ultimate training Camp located in Western Massachusetts. NUTC is the longest running ultimate sleepover camp in the country. It has also gone international, hosting camps and teaching clinics all over the globe. With the most talented coaches in the world, NUTC is teaching ultimate for the next generation. Learn from the best at NUTC.
Luisa: Share the Air is also sponsored by VC Ultimate. VC has been producing custom uniforms and performance apparel since 1998. A company that proudly puts values and community before profit, VC is the world's best source for quality design and all of your ultimate needs. We can definitely talk about the PQL and all of the teams as they are now, but I would really love hear about that first year. And what were the conversations to even start Indy Red?
Jackie Lai: I mean, I think it's really funny because it was like super simple. So, I was in the airport, And I was getting back from Indianapolis, for bruising, my friend in Houston, and all of a sudden, I I'm just sitting there and I get a message from Lauren Piontek. LP. and she was just like, Hey, have you seen this thing about Detroit starting a women's team? Do you think, do you think we should start a woman's team? I wish I had gone back and read this message, but do you think we should start a women's team? They need somebody to play. are you interested in talking about this? And LP and I, we're not super close friends at the time we were like acquaintance friends, like knew each other through leagues and stuff like that. She knew who each other were. And she reached out to me because I had connection to Rogue, where most women played and I was like, Yeah, that that's really cool. Like, that sounds great. We should meet. And we met, we'd decided to meet in a coffee shop, met in a coffee shop. We were like, do you want to try and make the team for Detroit play? And we're like, yeah, let's do it. I dunno, it's again, it sounds really, it was just really simple, weird, but I think LP and I have similar personalities.We want to do this thing, we're going to do it and we're going to put 200% into it. And we're going to, we're just going to make it happen. But, I will say LP was literally the perfect partner. I don't know, when we were like planning everything because all of a sudden it was like, okay. Here's this calendar and here's like, we're going to do XYZ to be able to get things started. And like, when I was really crazy booked at work and stuff, like she'd be able to pick up slack. And when she was really busy, I would pick up slack and it was like literally together forum to one human.
Tulsa: One mega human.
Jackie Lai: That did the thing. Yeah. You know, we sent out a Google survey, like a moveable interest survey. It was basically like, Hey, people are out in Indianapolis. Are you interested in playing pro women's team? You got solid interests back. And so you're like we're off and running. Let's do whatever we need to do to be able to make this thing happen. And so, you know, we kind of secured essentially what I would call like a fiscal sponsor, out of Indiana ultimate foundation. They like covered a lot of the expenses for us, and then we were able to pay them back based on from revenue that season, but got to organizing tryouts. And I think for LP and me, it was really real when we saw that Brittany Winner had signed up, I wanted to try out for the team and Melissa Gibbs had signed up. I want to try for the team. I just remember LP messaging me. And she was like, Brittany Winner signed up? I'm supposed to try to like judge Brittany Winner at this tryout, excuse me.And like, it, it was, I mean, it was great. And we had our first tryout. It's fantastic. It was just very positive and fun. We didn't have the best space. Like it was a very small indoor space. But yeah, I think we had I dunno, 55 or 60 ladies show up for tryouts and played their heart out. And it was extremely fun to watch. I think everybody was just so excited at the idea of at all.
Luisa: So those conversations with LP, those first tryouts that happened in 2018.
Jackie Lai: Yes. Right. Started In 2018
Luisa: And I, I actually forgot about the Detroit team. And as you mentioned that I remember seeing, um, at least the statement that they had first posted on Twitter saying, you know, we're going to create, this women's team alongside our men's program. So that's, I mean, that's really cool to hear that it was kind of just you and LP talking about this team needs somebody to play. Like let's be that team. so there's five teams that first year, like the, the PUL season zero, I guess, um, there was, there was Red, there was the Detroit team, the Riveters, there was Nightshade I believe was also that year as well as Torch. And then I think Radiance, is that, it those five?
Jackie Lai: Soul.
Luisa: The Soul. That was a…Okay. So those, those, those five teams that first year, do you know how the other, because it kind of makes sense for Red, right? Red was kind of the closest to the Riveters, but how did, how did Nashville get involved in the conversation? How did Soul get involved in the conversation? I don't know if you were even involved in how a lot of those initial communications started between all those teams.
Jackie Lai: I've heard some things kind of just from conversation between, people, but, even though Detroit was the first to actually announced. I actually think that Nashville had thought of the idea to create a professional women's team first. They had a really strong backer, and I do not remember his name right now, but maybe it will come to me. He is a fantastic dude. He was just going to help them start it. And I think that it was when Nightwatch was still around. Nashville. And I think he was affiliated with them. And so they, they want to create a similar to Detroit, like preferred professional women's team. So Detroit then happens. And then the same shrunk backer with the night shade. He somehow started talking with Maddie fry and Angela Lynn over in Atlanta. And it was basically like, if I give you, I think, like thousand dollars would you make a team just this like startup money. Right. And, and I think they were just like, Yeah. And then they got the ball rolling and started up a team.
Luisa: But, okay. So in 2019 with the formation of the PUL, did you join? Cause I know that you've, you've worked in essentially the PUL’s admin. So did that start in 2019?
Jackie Lai: So after the Red season was over LP and I were wildly burnt out. And so we kind of wanted to take a break and we were like, if anybody wants to take the reins and moving things forward, like feel free to, and so one of my favorite people in the world, Nicole Clay, she, she took over. And honestly, if you, I would say that like, Nicole is one of the main reasons why the PUL is around. She started having conversations with other people who had started pro teams right the nation, and organized to have them meet up at worlds in Cincinnati. And so, that was like the first conversation, I think. Maricio Maura was there, Maddie fry was there, Laura older Shaw was there, probably a lot more other people were there, but like they, they had that first meeting of like, okay. What if we start this league? I think there were some, there were some conversation with Laurel at the time. But eventually Maddie and Angela came up with the structure of the PUL. But Nicole really like, kept the momentum going, I think in that time where a lot of the people who are helping start, these teams were pretty burnt out. And so selfishly, I, I count a lot of that. The reason why that appeals here is cause she went ahead and, and organize that meeting at Worlds with all of these people. And I eventually stepped on, helped with some administrative stuff. I actually was designing their graphics and stuff for Red. Like that was what my main job was in the beginning. Because I was, I've always been interested in like graphic design stuff. And then later in the season, when they needed a little bit more like assistance logistically and stuff like that, I, I, helped Nicole Clay and Cohen give me a bit with, with that. And then also like started to attend some people board meetings to, um, kind of, again, just, just be able to help out where I could. I think a lot of other people on the POL did so much work. There are some amazing people who made everything happen. And I, I remember like the, end of season, tournament and then they championship weekend and the kind of like pretty, that was at one of the bars, all the board members came around and we celebrated the fact that I think almost every single team ended with positive cash flow at the end of the season. And we might've said like an expletive and sustainability something, it was like a group cheer. I dunno if that makes sense, but it was, I was pretty wonderful. Um, you know, Maddie, Angela bone saw Nicole, Colleen, I lean, gosh, I'm gonna, I'm gonna miss people and it's gonna be horrible. Uh, Lindsey, they all did a lot of really good work. And championship weekend, those semis games, the craziest and best games I had watched, I was like, this is insane. I'm really sorry to bring that up.
Tulsa: Oh, no. No, no.
Jackie Lai: Sorry, Tulsa.
Tulsa: Yeah, it's been a bit. And, and, you know, yes, losing is never fun, but it, it felt like, you know, double over time, it made it a memorable, like everyone got their money's worth. It was, it was fun to watch. And to me that felt in some ways more valuable than my team winning was that like, I w I wanted the lead to succeed and I wanted people to enjoy watching it and to watch great games and watch fun. Ultimate. And I think felt like a win.
Luisa: I remember it's so crazy that we think about, you know, we want the team to win. We want the team to succeed. And I remember talking to other people on Gridlock about, wanting to put out a really good products. And we've never played on teams where we've had fans in the sense. And it was I mean, certainly the first time for, I think almost all of us that we had had that and everyone, up and down the roster was just really excited to put out a good product and to make fans happy and excited. And I wonder if that was something that's maybe, maybe not exactly that same sort of sentiment. Because the league was, was certainly an infancy that first year in 2018, but if like you mentioned that initial excitement that you felt at Red's first tryout. And I just wonder if, can you maybe describe a little bit of what that energy was maybe like, and how that's different from whatever energy that you felt on club? Because I know that in that game, especially in that semi-final game, I really felt that different energy from our usual club season, it was like an energy of wanting to create something for the fans, not for our team's results or something. So just wondering if you had any, if you observed any similar sort of sentiments from that first year on Red or even, you know, in that year, in that first year of the well.
Jackie Lai: Yeah. I don't know if it was because, we have some almost unnaturally positive people on dread, but I don't know it observing tryouts. Everybody was like, everybody was high-fiving and they were just like, so excited to be there. They were cheering on everybody, no matter what, there's just the sense of like, Yeah.
Peer excitement at the opportunity to have something that was never available to you before. Right. And it was really, it was really wonderful to see everybody was celebrated for their successes. And a lot of people, honestly, who, who didn't know each other, we had, our Cincinnati contingent. We had people from St. Louis, people from Bloomington, people from other places up north, um, come and
I actually asked one of my friends, why she was so excited about Red and having the chance to play pro and, and it honestly came down to like, I get to play in front of my family and they can come watch.
Right? Like, it's this one time game and you can have your fans in the stands and with the tournament, it's just different. It's always different. And I think that always stuck with me. Like I was like, I just want my friends and my friends who I know are super talented, to be able to have the opportunity to play in front of the people they love and also be able to show off how great they are.
The Midwest, the Great Lakes, you know, has, I mean, sometimes been a little underrated in times and I, some of my friends just haven't gone and tried out for Nationals levels teams, but I always thought that they were stellar players and I was excited for them to have that opportunity
Tulsa: I think, yeah, I think we're getting at this kind of like bigger topic of why create a new league? Why create something different? We have this club structure, you know, we're working continually, there's been growth in terms of the number of women's teams. So what is it? And I think this is a question for all three of us and somewhat of like, what is it that excites us about this league and why create it?
It's a big question, but, but I think it's like, why do we do this? Why did so many people invest so much time and effort into
Jackie Lai: I think the thing that really turned it around for me was Emily Baecher's article, back when she had tried out for the Whitecaps and then she did that followup article, where she talked about her experience as a woman in sports. And there's this one line where she was talking about, you shouldn't have to be measured on the yardstick of men's accomplishments in sports. We should be measured on our own. And I dunno, I, that, that moment and reading that article has always been probably the single most impactful thing in terms of changing my thinking from how society had raised me essentially, , to think women's sports is valuable. It deserves it's own attention. My friends deserve their own attention and people deserve to
know, are our own game yeah.
Tulsa: We don't have to be compared. We are our own We be our own sport and it doesn't
Jackie Lai: the creation of a creation of our own league is basically like, hopefully like we're creating our own yardstick right there.
Luisa: I think that a term that has gotten thrown around a lot with, the creation of the POL and the need for it is exposure. And I think that has been happening with women's sports in general. Is that what's that, what's that phrase?
Um, you can't be what you can't see and I think that's, I think that's huge. If you only ever see men playing, of course, that's going to be your yardstick because you have nothing else to compare it to you have, I just think example is such a huge piece of people's learnings and, how people just visualize everything from what they think of when they think of the sport to how they see themselves playing it.
And I can say that with the creation of the PBL, the footage I have of myself has more than doubled, and I played the, POL for. One season, one season and I had a and that I, and I didn't play in two of the games and with the remainder, what three or four games that we had, I doubled the amount of footage that I'd had of myself playing ultimate in the full seven years I've been playing ultimate.
So think that piece, that you're saying that like, not only does it give us a space to showcase our talent and show everyone that this is something we're capable of doing, but also showing our personal communities, our families, our friends, and like, to be quite honest, tournament's are not super accessible for most people.
The POL has definitely made, Frisbee more accessible. And I think especially as someone who's never been to a College Nationals or Club Nationals, when you have games that end up on ESPN, my parents have been incredibly supportive and will always watch it when I throw on, either a club or college Nationals.
but for them to be able to turn on a game that I'm playing in, I've never had that opportunity before. And I think that's, yeah, it's, it means it means a lot. I'm super grateful for all of the work that those original teams and those original folks not only started, but helped maintain through that burnout.
Jackie Lai: I think, I imagine women and girls who are just now learning about ultimate you know, in high school, middle school, college, whatever, and like to follow. there's, there's something you can look
Tulsa: Highlights teams follow.
Jackie Lai: that, is, you know, as, as we talk about it, I'm really glad that the POL and everything ended up happening and I'm
glad LP Facebook messaged me.
Um,
Tulsa: We gotta find the message. I wanna, I want to include
Jackie Lai: oh, I can,
Tulsa: something. No messages. It started.
Jackie Lai: LP is no longer on Facebook, but I just want to fund it because like, she didn't even have my number.
Tulsa: for her.
Jackie Lai: She even couldn't text me.
Tulsa: Yeah.
Jackie Lai: Yeah.
Tulsa: There's another piece of it too, that I was thinking about, which is the, like, we talk about how ultimate isn't the most accessible, especially financially. And I think a benefit of the POL is that, I'm not investing $3,000 into a season to travel and fly these places. And so I think it gives the opportunity for players where cost may be a barrier.
I mean, there's definitely still costs and still costs to get to the level, to be able to play on a POL team. But the fact that the season, you aren't shelling out tons of money from your own pocket means that somebody could play that maybe
play a
Jackie Lai: Yeah.
I sometimes rehash over how much my two seasons on Nemesis cost and it's, it's wild. Yeah. I G obviously it allowed me to be able to play and be on a team that played on the highest levels, but also it was thousands of dollars flights and food, tournament fees, and fields.
It's crazy. yeah, And, I think that is, that is a big part of it is accessibility to those to be able to play on a high level who may not have been able to before and therefore showcase what they do as well.
Luisa: Now share the air. We'll take a break to talk about today's teachable moment brought to you by the center for applied nurse.
Tulsa: this week's teachable moment is about routines. When we establish a routine, whether it's a warmup routine, the superstitious way we put on cleats or the foods we eat the night before a tournament, our brains work more efficiently and calm. Yeah,
Luisa: efficiencies are in the brain because they can serve energy and free up space for our brain to do more complex thinking when faced with uncertainty, like responding to the flow that evolves after playing role. Routines are also calming and soothing for us in our brains because they give us predictability and reduce the stress and adrenaline neurochemicals associated with uncertain.
Tulsa: and applied neuroscience tip is to establish your teens, that you can later rely on to calm your nerves before a big game, like the rituals of cleaning up and all of the parts of a warmup. Also getting the routine of our plays down is good and efficient way to make brain space for in the moment actions needed to respond to the emergency.
routines, maybe superstitious, but regardless the brain likes.
Luisa: Thanks Dr. Mandy, when tink and The center for applied neuroscience for this teachable moment, head to www dot, know your brain.ca and see what courses they have to teach you more about your brain. If you mentioned, you heard about them here, you'll get a 5% discount off course fees, and they'll also donate 5% back to share their,
, I did, want to, ask about, your decision to coach in 2020, and you're going to be coaching again? I'd love to just know, What was that transition like? why decide to make that move?
Jackie Lai: So we're going to go back to the theme of, really don't like working out apparently. To be like, and I was like a season was about to start. I mean, we were like a couple of months out from tryouts and whatnot, but I was like, I don't think I'm ready to play and like physically, mentally anything.
And, like Vanderbush our, our head coach. He texted me and was like, would you be interested in being an assistant coach? And I thought about it for awhile. and I was like, Yeah.
I think, you know, I'll I'll coach. And then I will get myself ready for club season, have a good club season, and then hopefully maybe get back on the fields. I've always also enjoyed coaching in general. coach pretty for a couple of years, while living in Indy. So that was always a little challenging.
I, I wasn't as present as you know, I wish I could be. Since Indy was like a little more than an hour away from, Purdue. And, but I, I tried to make as much as I could because I really, loved seeing the team grow. And again, like having good relationships with players on the team and, and seeing them develop as people, has always been really fun for me.
It's been interesting. I think, honestly we haven't been able to deal a lot of the ultimate. And so a lot of coaching so far has been like
logistical stuff.
Tulsa: yeah, not fun stuff. In my
Jackie Lai: and trying to keep, keep the team connected in ways as much as possible, yeah.
Luisa: so earlier, Jackie, you mentioned that you did two years working at TFA. But since then, I think You've worked with Big Brother, Big Sister. And that's where you currently work and you are a big sister yourself in the program. Can you tell us a bit about that work?
Jackie Lai: yeah, so I guess my title is executive and grants manager. I usually joke with my description to people of what exactly that role is, but so I'll tell you too, because the easiest way to explain, I do whatever CEO tells me to do. And I write a bunch of grants, all that saying it really lot, a lot more than that.
I help manage board relations and staff meetings and try to help a staff culture through a pandemic. And then I also help facilitate some of our equity, diversity and inclusion efforts at our agency. You know, there are, there are a lot of flaws with nonprofits and basically I think there are just completely other podcasts about that, like philanthropy and non-profit work. But I think our organization, you know, we recognize we are a S a staff and a board that is majority white, and we are actively trying to be able to combat that as much as possible considering we serve 80% youth of color, 60% black youth. And so it's been a difficult year and especially also working through how to move our EDI efforts forward in a way that's meaningful and impactful.
Especially for the kids and families we work with I think EDI is not always like a super tangible thing. And I know that we're seeing this a lot, of it being pride month and all these corporations are changing their loaders to like rainbow stuff and like, yeah. that's that tangible thing, but what are you doing internally?
How are you considering your decisions, your small actions and making sure that you have kids and families best interests at heart? All the time. Our, our staff is very considerate of that at but we know we need different perspectives on staff as well, to hopefully come on and be there for this very long journey. But Yeah. And then, and then, like I said, I'm a big sister. She's 16. She's going to be junior in high school, which is kinda wild. We were matched when she was 12. So we're about to ce- oh my god. Today is our match anniversary. Our four year match anniversary,
Thank for being here cause now I need to text her. I mean, she's a great kid. She's a great young lady. She is about a million times more responsible than I was at that age. You know, like, she uses her calendar on her phone to be able to like, which is not something I did until I was a 24 year old or something like that. She uses her calendar on her phone to make sure that she has everything down. She gets all our work done again through, through a pandemic when she was having to do a bunch of e-learning when they were assigning 5 billion assignments. And she just makes sure things are done. And you know, she, she texts me and asks me how I'm doing, because she's just such a great person. And she is very observant and knows what's going on in the world and wants to eventually go into the medical field. And right now she wants to be a nurse and wants to help people. And she's just wonderful human and I'm just, you know, a lot of people have, this perception of what exactly like mentorship should be or like voluntary and non-profit should be. And really honestly, I'm, I'm just lucky to like, be there with her as she's learning to drive and getting ready to go to college visits and grow up and be an adult, even though she already is a mini adult. Yeah. No, she's a great, great young lady.
Tulsa: Yeah. That's special that you've been with her four years. That's impactful in the longterm.
Jackie Lai: She's got it all together though so.
Tulsa: Yeah. Yeah. Can you maybe explain big
Jackie Lai: So big brothers, big sisters is a youth mentoring organization. What we do is we pair one Little is what they're called with a Big. Volunteers are very thoroughly screens and background check and references and go through this two hour interview, that usually makes you cry at some point, because you're talking about very personal fittings. But it's mainly to make sure that volunteer is going to be a supportive mentor to their Little when they're 8 years old and, you know, still haven't totally vocalized their identity to when they're 16 and they have completely vocalize their identity and who they are and what they want. And so our staff does that whole enrollment and matching process. And then we have mentoring relationship specialists who then follow up with the match to ensure child safety, make sure the relationship progressing well, make sure that, you know, we have the kids' goals and aspirations in mind and we're helping the reach those as they want and also providing activities for our matches to do. And we hope that they'll stay together until the Little graduates from high school or turns 18 but then officially the match kind of closest
Tulsa: Yeah.
Jackie Lai: for sure Yeah.
Luisa: so we talked about where you are at with playing in terms of ultimate. You're going to be coaching Red. You're going to Masters Nationals. We talked about your work with Big Brother, Big Sister, but we've kind of had a bit of a crazy year with, with COVID and are definitely changing. So what's next for you in ultimate or in life?
Jackie Lai: I think that's a good question. I'm not quite sure. I don't think I have it sorted out yet. I definitely want ultimate to be a part of my life as always. But what we had talked about before that feeling of, of not having a million things to do, and being constantly exhausted has been really nice. So having some semblance of a life outside of ultimate is kind of what I want. I think, when I play ultimate, I'm unsure if I'll ever get back to that, like I have to play at the highest level anymore, and it might honestly be, and, and it's been trending this way more of I want to have fun. I want to have fun with my friends. I want to have fun with my teammates. And have good relationships with them. I don't know. I think I kinda think that I'll always be a little involved with Red because I'm unsure if I can totally let it go. But I don't know. I there's a lot of questions about in what capacity and all of that. I don't know. Maybe I'm a master's only player, who knows.
Tulsa: What do you hope is next for the ultimate community?
Jackie Lai: I think I mentioned this earlier about, you know, obviously ultimate has its flaws and, a lot of aspects have a lot of flaws. But I, I mean, I overall, I do see like a positive trend in, in how people approach, not only ultimate, but everything when talking more so about equity and inclusion and, and making sure that. our space is open to whoever wants to, to join. I said, I wouldn't get into this a ton, but at least like from a local community standpoint, like Indianapolis is still pretty fractured from the pandemic. And, you know, some people will say because, because of me. Me speaking out. I hope that while yes, I, I do want people to come to come together and be able to enjoy each other's company.I also hope that some sort of positive change happens within at least the Indianapolis community. You know, people recognizing that the way that they play or act at certain events, isn't only about them. It's about the people around them and making sure that again, we create a space where people feel supported and welcomed and, and like they have a place. I struggled with that. Yeah. A lot Nemesis, like not, not knowing where my place was. That's a really difficult feeling to have, and don't want anybody to feel that way. Whether it, whether it be like on a club team from team elite team placement community just in general. And I think there are a lot of people who are speaking out and speaking up, which is encouraging to see, Why is this such a difficult question? I should have really prepared for this question? Cause I knew you guys were going to ask it.
Tulsa: It’s a big question.
Luisa: It’s a big question. It's very involved. Yeah, we can hope for a lot. And also it involves the efforts of many people, not just, just the one, doing the hoping.
Jackie Lai: We have to get this thing over with, with the 10 second stall thing. I am, I am in such fear of It because I was listening to the other episodes and you know, you were like, they're going to be easy questions and I'm like sitting there like, oh my God, what is my favorite play ever? Oh my God, what is favorite -
Tulsa: Okay. Okay. So I mean, you, you know, the premise of it, but I guess for people who may be, this is our first episode, our game is called 10 Seconds Stall. So we have a series of questions that are, kind of like short answer. And you'll have 10 seconds from when we start asking the question to, when you give your answer. And if you hit 10 seconds and you haven't given an answer, then we will stall you say stall.
Luisa: Cool. I think it was, it wasn't like a long time ago. The stall was actually longer than 10 seconds.
Tulsa: Yeah. It was 15 and then it went to 12 then it 10, think. Yeah.
Luisa: Okay, cool. Tulsa, do you wanna start?
Tulsa: Sure. Okay. What teammate do you want on the line with you Who's your all-time teammate?
Jackie Lai: Christian Debbie.
Luisa: What did you eat for breakfast this morning?
Jackie Lai: A banana. Thank you, that was a good one. Thank you for that.
Tulsa: Who is that hardest match up you've ever had or being guarded by?
Jackie Lai: The BENT lady, when we played you, Luisa.
Luisa: Who? Uh, 2019?
Jackie Lai: Shit. Jess?
Luisa: Jess Whelan? Yeah. She's a, a tough runner. She she works real hard and is very gritty on, on defense.
Jackie Lai: Ooh, I should have, I should have said you Luisa.
Luisa: Oh, thank you! Uh, most embarrassing fashion trend you've ever worn?
Jackie Lai: Uh, Crocs. I've hated them for years and we got them for, um, my friend's wedding uh, it's just like this thing that they did. And I got these bright, tidy Crocs, and they're the most comfortable shoe and I hate myself for it.
Luisa: Okay, here we go. Jackie, you only have one throw, what throw do you pick?
Jackie Lai: Full field back hand pull, let it all out.
Tulsa: That's great. Your favorite play that you've ever made?
Jackie Lai: In 2019, when we were playing against Torch, I threw this one throw to score to my friend and afterwards we proceeded to just naturally, immediately just run up to each other and just this beautiful chest bump happened is the most I've ever, um, had.
Tulsa: Okay
Luisa: We've never had someone talk about a celebration and that's like, so that's like so true, to be part of a good play.
Jackie Lai: I I think the worst thing was both duds and I knew that it was the best celebration we'd had together and like, it just worked perfectly and it was neither caught on photography camera, it's not caught on video.
Luisa: Yeah. Can you give us a book podcast or TV show recommendation?
Jackie Lai: Podcast. You're wrong about, it's a very, very fun podcasts where they kind of debunk a lot of, very popular mistruth spout events or people.
Luisa: Hmm.
Jackie Lai: Yeah.
Luisa: Someone that you're grateful for?
Jackie Lai: My partner.
Tulsa: Who's the best sideline presence?
Jackie Lai: Jess Draper.
Luisa: okay. Last question. If you could play a song over your walkout or chest bump goal celebration, what song would you play? I want to take
by the way
Jackie Lai: I'm like so bad at songs. Like I just listened to stuff. Um, I’m gonna get stalled out on this.
Tulsa: I'll call. Yay, you did it!
Luisa: You did it. Jackie, thank you so much for joining us on share the air. We really appreciate you taking the time to talk with us and just of talk about whatever.
Jackie Lai: Thank you for having me. I appreciate talking with you both and also learning more about you two along the way.
Tulsa: Thanks for listening. It's pretty wild to say, but we only have one more episode left of our first season.
Luisa: With so few episodes left, make sure to check out Share the Air on all of our socials at Instagram and Twitter and Facebook. You can always find more Share the Air content on Patreon if you w ant to listen to more episodes and hear from more guests, and just hear other things that we didn't get to include in longer episodes. thanks so much for listening.
Tulsa: Share the Air is hosted by Tulsa Douglas and Luisa Neves. It's produced and edited by Tulsa Douglas, Luisa Neves, and Tim Bobrowski.
Luisa: Share the Air's music is by Grey Devlin and Christopher Hernandez. Thanks again to our sponsors, NUTC, VC Ultimate and the Centre for Applied Neuroscience.