This week we interview ultimate player, disc golfer, and activist Jenna Weiner. Co-hosted by Tulsa Douglas and Luisa Neves.
This episode, we talk with Jenna Weiner about her experience playing in the Mixed division and what it has to offer to the sport of ultimate, as well as her disc golf career, and the gender inequities that exist in the sport. Jenna also discusses her work with Athlete Ally, her work as an activist for the trans community, and more.
Share the Air is hosted by Tulsa Douglas and Luisa Neves. It is planned, edited, and produced by Tulsa Douglas, Luisa Neves, and Tim Bobrowski. Share the Air's music is by Grey Devlin and Christopher Hernandez. Share the Air is sponsored by the National Ultimate Training Camp and VC Ultimate.
Athletic Equality Index: https://aei.athleteally.org/
What ultimate can learn from quidditch: https://ultiworld.com/2021/04/20/broom-goes-the-dynamite-what-ultimate-can-learn-from-quidditch/
Jenna's Skyd article: https://skydmagazine.com/2017/03/competitive-advantage-transgender-people/
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Luisa: Hello everyone. Welcome back to episode three of Share the Air. We wanted to start by saying thank you so much for all the support that all of our listeners have given us so far. We've appreciate all of your kind words, reviews on apple podcasts and your help spreading the word. It's really been wonderful.
Tulsa: Yes. Thank you all.
So last week, Lu guessed the teams that I have played on, so this week, it's my turn to guess all of the teams that Lu has played on in her ultimate career so far.
Luisa: Spoiler alert is that Tulsa remembers all the teams that she's played on.
Tulsa: Okay. So Lu, I know you started playing in college. And I believe that you went to University of Rochester or is it SUNY Rochester? Which one is the official name? University of Rochester State University of New York? No. Okay. University of Rochester.
Luisa: This is a thing, because there's another really big school in Rochester called RIT, which is the Rochester Institute. And the people at the U of R are super stuck up and will be upset if you say, oh, are you from RIT.
Tulsa: So you went to University of Rochester but I don't know the team name.
Luisa: It is the University of Rochester EZs, which is short for Erogenous Zones. And it really was not until maybe my junior year of college that I realized that the overlap is with zone offense or zone defense. And it took me forever to learn that. But yeah.
Tulsa: Did you play all four years there?
Luisa: I played, well, actually no, I played four years. I started playing my freshman year, but I didn't really go to anything especially throughout the fall and then not until halfway through the spring. I was so shy. And I remember showing up to the first tournament, and I saw there was a bunch of alums there and they were in one hand holding beers. And then the other hand throwing these disgusting low release flicks. I hadn't figured out how to throw a backhand yet. And I was just like, sh I was shocked by what was happening.
Tulsa: Okay. So University of Rochester EZs and I think then BENT, I don't know if there was any club teams before BENT. And then Gridlock. So what club teams did I miss?
Luisa: The only club team you missed is the club team that I played with during college, which was a Brooklyn Book Club. Um,
Tulsa: Oh, I didn't know you played BBC.
Luisa: Yeah. I played with them for two years. And the next year I tried out for BENT. And then I'd been on BENT ever since but you got all the others.
Tulsa: Do you have any social teams that go to fun tournaments or anything?
Luisa: I do have one.
Tulsa: Are you on FriendBoat?
Luisa: I am on FriendBoat. That is, that is one. I also have another fun team that has, I think other people at this point have, have sort of picked up the reins for it . I was definitely one of the original people who started the team called PuNY, which was the Pride of New York.
Tulsa: I love it.
Luisa: And we had a really great jersey that I had photo-shopped. cat face emoji into the like PoNY's lion mane. It was the sort of team that went Wildwood and Layout and stuff. And I'd love to like pick up with them again. It was like a really fun group of, of people.
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Tulsa: Before we get into our interview, we want to give a warning that this episode contains mentions of police brutality against the Black community.
Luisa: Joining us for today's episode of Share the Air is Jenna Weiner. Jenna started playing ultimate in undergrad and UC Berkeley playing intramural and later with the Men's B team. At the University of Nevada Reno, Jenna played with the women's team, Black Ice, while doing her graduate work in communication studies. Her club career has included playing for mixed teams like Reno's Cutthroat, and San Francisco's BDub Ultimate. In addition to ultimate, Jenna is also an avid disc golfer. Though she'd already been playing for many years, she's participated in more competitions during the COVID-19 pandemic and won two tournaments in 2020. Jenna's work has included research with Athlete Ally, education and training coordination with adolescent counseling services, and serving as a board member for the Western Ultimate League. In 2019, she gave a Ted Talk on re-imagining gender inclusivity in sports. We're excited to chat and learn more about her very packed resume. So Jenna, welcome to the show!
Cool. So I know you're no newbie to podcasting, but um, why don't you tell us a little bit about how you got started playing ultimate?
Jenna Weiner: Yeah. So the intro covered it a little bit. I knew about ultimate growing up because my dad had played, some pretty recreationally around college post-college. And so we taught my brother and I, growing up. I knew about ultimate. There was kind of, um, ultimate team at my high school, but I don't think you could even put a full line together folks to play. So then when I went to Berkeley for my undergrad, I in the marching band and one time during band camp, some folks were throwing around a disc and I was like, Oh, Hey, know how to do that. That looks fun. So I joined them and it turned out that they had an intramural team that they played, in, at Berkeley that was mostly band members. And so I got pulled in my freshman year , started playing with that team all four years, captained our little intramural team the last couple of years, and then myself and a couple of friends who were in the band with me and who were in my same year , the three of us were like, Hey, we want to play more ultimate, let's join the B team. And so we joined the Men's B team, at UC Berkeley. then from there, I kept playing summer leagues and pick up and continued, and then I went to Reno and continue to play in summer league. And I had a little bit of college eligibility left because I didn't start my clock until my junior year of undergrad. And so that allowed me to, while I was transitioning in Reno, play for one season on the women's team, as you mentioned, and yeah, mostly have played mixed in club, and obviously pick up leagues are often mixed. And I'm hoping to play women's ultimate at some point, although what that looks like in 2021 and going forward is still obviously TBD.
Luisa: So can I ask, what was, what was the reason to play mixed? Like what drew you do to mixed ultimate?
Jenna Weiner: The boring answer is that in Reno, there was only one club team and it was a mixed club team. And so if you wanted to play club ultimate in Reno and not have to commute to Sacramento or the Bay area, you had one option who knows what happens next again, in terms of where I go. And, and I the idea of playing women's ultimate because I haven't ever done that at the club level. I think just as who is on the taller side at least historically I'll see how much, how in shape I get
Tulsa: Yes.
Jenna Weiner: have been one of the faster players on the field, I wonder how that will translate to the women's game differently than the mixed game. I'm curious about what kind of role I can find myself in on a women's team that might be different than on a mixed team, because of and how the two different, divisions tend to play.
I personally encourage anyone who hasn't actually tried playing mixed to try playing mixed it is a very different game men's or women's because you have to work with different match-ups, you have to think about, okay, where are we cross-matching. You can't just play zone and think we just play zone.
You have to think, okay, is in our cup? Who of the different people of different gender identities who is in the cup? What spots, do you make it work, so that then your downfield defense also works. And offensively as well, there's lots of strategy in mixed that you don't get in the other divisions.
And so I think it's really, really worth people's time to at least try playing mixed at a, you know, as high level as you can. Simply because if you then go to a single gender division, I think there are quite a few lessons and quite a few ways to think about the game that you wouldn't otherwise get.
If you didn't have an experience in mixed. And I understand that mixed has a bad reputation or can have a bad reputation, especially with women. And trust me, I have been there. Um, I understand that 110%. And I think in the right environment mixed can actually be a really interesting and unique place to foster strategy and ideas.
And we can talk about this more, but if we're talking about gender inclusivity mixed has been sort of a place where I've thought that there could be some innovation and some ways to push gender inclusivity forward, or at least think about it differently in the mixed space that you don't quite have the same options in the single gender divisions.
Luisa: Yeah, I think that that strategy piece, that was a kind of surprising, I mean, New York is just. Flooded with mixed teams. And, starting to talk to some of my friends who played on some of those mixed teams, I think the strategy piece was, a new thing that I hadn't thought about before. And that's part of, you know, the captains and leadership, designing some of those, those things is, is that strategy piece, which I thought was really fascinating
But in talking about, is some of that, uh, re-imagining piece. I know that you've done work re-imagining like the mixed format. I know that, DiscNY has adopted, in, in some cases the league format you proposed, which is a, three, three, one league
Jenna Weiner: I think DiscNY is pretty much the first league that took me up on that idea. Um, which actually funny enough came from going on a podcast way back in 2017. So it's been a minute and, and I was on an ultimate podcast and someone was like, okay, well, would you do it differently if you had the choice to?
And I was like, well, mixed, already has this flip flop position in terms of gender. Why are we designating that by gender at all? Why can't we just. it's, non-gender designated and have that spot be open to anyone. And taken a little bit of tweaking and I credit some of the folks at DiscNY.
And in the Brooklyn leagues I know in particular have, have talked through this of do you define the different roles and positions in such that you don't default back to what is normal, which is often in, in local leagues, four men, three women. But thinking about in the way of like, we have this switching spot already, let's use that to our advantage.
And also, I'm gonna plug an article that, Mags recently wrote for ultiworld about looking at Quidditch and thinking about how Quidditch, has a gender maximum role, but I think trying to be a little bit more intentional in how you center people with marginalized identities in a way.
And so we are doing this in a way to be thoughtful about including these people. I thought was a good way to go. And especially since Quidditch, as far as I know, doesn't quite have the same matching issues ultimate does thinking a little bit more critically about how do you define matching in ways that don't disadvantage teams that are trying to be inclusive?
Which again, I think there's always room for improvement. I am very much open to people being like, Hey, this doesn't work for us. Let's figure out ways to, to change it, to be better, in different ways.
But I do think in those situations, then there's real potential for and advancement in terms of how we think critically about gender in relation to our sports world.
Tulsa: I think the piece of thinking creatively and re-imagining is really important because it's so easy to be like, well, this is the way we've always done it, and what else are we going to do? What would we do instead? I think, yeah, it's just important to be able to say, we can brainstorm other ways and think about new ways to do things that helps more people feel included.
Jenna Weiner: And it's also a process of figuring out, okay, well, we tried it this way and maybe that didn't work. So let's do it differently. I know with, the Western Ultimate League, and ultimate as a whole, this conversation has been happening about the use of women X and trying to move away from the term women X, because of how some people think about it.
And that's tricky because people use it to try to be inclusive. And then in other situations, it was seen as not as inclusive. For me, as someone who is a trans woman, but identify as non binary. For me, women X was intended to be women and non-binary was an non binary , with trans women fitting under the umbrella of women because trans women are women. But in some situations, women X was defined as we are trying to be inclusive of women, trans women and non binary people, which then isolates trans women from the of women. So it gets complicated because to me, I was like, if you define women X a women and non binary, there are issues in that where you're including non binary people as effectively quote unquote women light. But it quite have as connotations when it comes to trans women specifically. So I know with the Western Ultimate League we opted to move to women and non binary. And I know that we're having ongoing conversations about is that the right language for the people who want to play in our league or who might play in our league. With the creative piece, again, I will say as the Western Ultimage League we're thinking, will say, as a board member in particular, me, am thinking about, okay, when we're talking about a league and branding our league, you do want to make it so that you can brand it well. And then it's recognizable to folks who are maybe not as familiar, who, if you were looking for sponsors, right? How do you craft language that doesn't have just a ginormous list of terms and is thoughtful about, we want to be inclusive and also, you know, have something that is more understandable for people. So possibility that I've seen floated in, in a few different places is "all people of marginalized gender identities."
That's a little long, but not terribly long. And you're including women, trans women under the women umbrella you're including non-binary people. And in that you're also including trans men. That is a way to say anyone but CIS men, which you don't necessarily want to say, cause that's centering this identity of CIS men, but all marginalized gender identities allows you to also then include trans men who in umbrella term of women and non binary, they aren't included in that. But if we want to include trans men in our league - potentially ongoing discussion - on what exactly that looks like and where people are at, then we're going to have to shift the language. so we would have to change our language and be thoughtful about that that came up or as we tried to think about who we wanted to include in our league in different ways. again, an ongoing discussion and I don't necessarily have the exact right answer. I think "all people with marginalized gender identities" is a fine way to go. I've also heard a phrase of "anyone who's had the experience of being a woman in the world," which I think is a little bit tricky when it comes to how we talk about especially trans and non binary people's gender identities. Gets a little bit fuzzy there, but I like the that's the same concept of we're looking to include anyone who's been marginalized in these specific ways. And it's going to take a little bit of figuring out what language is right in those circumstances. And it'll be different for different leagues. The Western Ultimate League might decide that it's going to do something different than the Premier Ultimate League, and that is okay. Different leagues, different situations. Even if oftentimes in particularly those two leagues are, are trying to do very similar things.
Luisa: And these are conversations, these among other things are conversations that the Western Ultimate League is currently having?
Jenna Weiner: I will say we're currently trying to have them. And I will say I am VP on the board. And, as part of that, I'm the head on our DEI committee. And so I am particular and pushing, our league to say, okay, let's think hard about this. Especially as we consider return to play sometime or another when we're having tryouts, do we want to try now thinking the next step forward, potentially past women and non binary, do we want to try to make some language change so that trans men are included, or can be included in our league?
Or do we not want to go down that route? And obviously this is not limited to gender, but that is my particular expertise. So we have to have these conversations and have to think hard about what that means, especially I think having the break and having this time now is actually kind of helpful in a little bit way for, for, especially the Western Ultimate League because it's giving us time to have these harder conversations to figure out what exactly we're doing ahead of an eventual return to play so that when we hit the ground running, we can focus on the games.
We can focus on, the athletes and the tryouts and really making our product shine on the field and off the field. So yeah, I I'm hopeful. But it, obviously, it's going to take time settle on what exactly works for us.
Tulsa: I guess I'm curious, what made you decide you wanted to be on
Jenna Weiner: Part of it was, was just, I want to be in a place where I can have more, discussions with folks and more, more figuring out what it looks like to play ultimate in the world. And seemed like a really good opportunity in general and with some cool people as well. I personally have quite a bit of interest yeah. And stake in making West Coast, Western states' ultimate succeed. And being a part of the board for the Western Ultimate League it gives me a role in shaping what that looks like.
Luisa: So we've talked a lot about mixed and you've played a ton in the mixed division, but we know that you're interested in playing women's this year or in the near future. Can you tell us more about that?
Jenna Weiner: I will say personally, I've toyed with the idea of starting my own women's team sort of fit that third, fourth team spot next to slash potentially above FAB, trying to maybe pull women who have played for Regionals-level mixed teams and say, "Hey, you tired of playing Mixed Regionals and dealing with the nonsense is Southwest Mixed Regionals? You want to come play women's and try to steal a national spot from Wildfire?" so that's sort of the dream, but the pandemic, given the uncertainty, given that I have a lot of other things going on, as you sort of mentioned in the bio, need another project. Um, certainly not one that I would be potentially mostly launching on my own. So I think it's an idea that I'm going to keep in my back pocket for potentially 2022 at this point.
Tulsa: Do you have any idea why there would be so many mixed teams and comparably so few women's teams?
Jenna Weiner: I think part of the problem, and this is, you can see this on the men's side too, is that the strength of the top teams is so strong. You're going up on the men's and women's sides in the Bay Area against Fury and Revolver. If you don't earn yourself a nationals bid, or you either steal Nightlock's or you steal Revolver's, or you don't go, and then you're playing Regionals anyway, which you can play on a mixed team and you have a shot now to make Regionals because Sectionals and Regionals out here are ridiculous. And again, the women's scene is pretty stratified unless you're going to break into Fury or Nightlocklock, your options are FAB or more developmental team. And those teams kind of come and go at times, which is why I was like, maybe I create my own women's team to sort of try to fill that gap. But it's a little bit tricky.
And also with mixed, the Bay Area has a lot of long established mixed teams.
And so it's just a long culture and long history. A lot of these teams have just for a long time. And so that leads to more mixed teams with people, like I want to play mixed, but I don't feel like I can make one of the teams that already exists, so then I'm just going to create my own. that's felt more open than on the women's or the men's side.
Tulsa: Yeah. Hmm. Well, if anyone out there is listening and wants to start a women's team, Jenna's in.
Jenna Weiner: Well let me, let me know. It's uh, yeah, but it's tricky, right? Because that's a lot of process to get that all done
Tulsa: Yeah,
Jenna Weiner: tryouts do you have tryouts?
Tulsa: Yeah, what a year to try and start a team.
Jenna Weiner: And here's the thing too. We say, you know what, we'll be curious to see what the 2021 season looks like, we'll be curious to see who comes back and all. But like me personally. I would love to play ultimate again. I like miss playing ultimate. Ultimate has a lot of flaws in the sport and the way that we think about the sport. And also, I really just enjoy playing the game of ultimate. I'm the type of person who will both play at a really high level and try out for some of the top teams in potentially the country, tried out for Mischief and got through a bunch of their tryouts and they came in second place year. And also I'm the person who will then go to all of the different league games and pickups and play local women's league and just have fun with it and help teach people and play the game because I enjoy playing ultimate at the end of the day. I, I would be remiss if I didn't say that I want to play ultimate again. What that looks like is a more complicated question, but I earnestly want to get out on the field again and play with people, after a disc, run after a disc. And so for me, I'm excited to get out on the field eventually with somebody in some form or another. What that looks
Tulsa: Okay.
Jenna Weiner: TBD. But, but I think at the end of the day, for me, that's what it comes down to too is want to play hang out with people. Even though our sport obviously has a lot of reckoning to do and continues to have a lot of reckoning to do with how we exist in the world.
Luisa: Share the Air will be right back. But first here's a quick word from our sponsors.
Tulsa: Share the Air is sponsored by the National Ultimate training Camp located in Western Massachusetts. NUTC is the longest running ultimate sleepover camp in the country. It has also gone international, hosting camps and teaching clinics all over the globe. With the most talented coaches in the world, NUTC is teaching ultimate for the next generation. Learn from the best at NUTC.
Luisa: Share the Air is also sponsored by VC Ultimate. VC has been producing custom uniforms and performance apparel since 1998. A company that proudly puts values and community before profit, VC is the world's best source for quality design and all of your ultimate needs.
Tulsa: We know that you've played disc golf before just, you know, pandemic times. So I think I'm just wondering, like why you like disc golf, what similarities and differences you see between disc golf and ultimate. Anything there?
Jenna Weiner: I mean, I think the shortest answer of those is I like throwing plastic and then pre I'm pretty good at it. I'm also a very competitive person generally. And so I enjoyed the competitive aspect of it. I miss the team aspect of ultimate, but I think playing disc golf has helpful companion to help my mental game because it is a lot of a mental game. a reason why as well, both throwing capacity and mental game, some of the most successful ultimate players who've moved over towards disc golf, long-time handlers in Leah Tsinajinnie and Ella Hansen in particular, because it's a lot of mental game and it's a lot of how many touch on your throws and being able to place things in the right spot. It's a mental challenge when you don't play well on the whole, you need to bounce back from it. Cause there's only you, that can deal with it. There's no teammates that you can say, all right, you get on the field. I just got broken two times in a row. I don't want to do again. it's, it's up to you. And so it's a mental game. It's a process of figuring out, what works the moment and, and with what discs in different ways. And some of it is that with ultimate, you're throwing to space, you're throwing to a person, versus disc golf, I almost think of it like a geometric puzzle where you have to figure, okay, to angle it this way so that it hits the ground at this time. I'm going to choose this, this, because it turns in this particular way, at this particular time when I throw this hard. So it's more of a geometric math puzzle almost to try to figure out what fits best. And then in terms of other broader comparisons, I mean, the culture is very different the board. And that's partially because of the history of the two sports. Ultimate history is largely in college, largely white educated, that sort of thing. Disc golf has had a reputation and it's not completely unearned of hippies, smoking and drinking in the woods and just throwing plastic around. That obviously has changed a lot, certainly at the higher levels of disc golf, but at the fundamental level, a lot of times you're probably just come to hang out, some plastic, hanging out with the folks they know in their area. The women's disc golf community is pretty small. I think women disc golf offers make up less than 10% of the total PDGA membership. end up meeting and playing with women locally, it's like, this is my group of folks. And they're, they're often the people I'm going to see at the tournament and tournament and tournament. Or if I go to a course I'm going to run into the same people. And so you get pretty close with those same ten, fifteen at most, probably no more than that, who are in your local area.
Luisa: I listened to the Hyzer Flip, was that the podcast?
Jenna Weiner: yeah. I talked to those
Tulsa: Yeah.
Jenna Weiner: back.
Luisa: Yeah.
Yeah. So I listened to that because I know nothing about disc golf, and the only things that I do know are from now seeing people, go from ultimate frisbee to disc golf in the pandemic. And there was so many fascinating things that I was like, wow, I had no idea this, this stuff about, about the sport. But you talked a little bit about, the, maybe some of the gender inequalities that disc golf has. And one that I thought was really fascinating was how the courses themselves are mostly designed for men. And some of the strengths that, that maybe men have. And I thought that was really, really fascinating. Just thinking a little bit about ultimate, you know, we talk about some of the differences in field sizes and things like that. And how, the AUDL has, has made changes to the, field structure, and, you know, all those sorts of things. But, I thought that was a really fascinating thing that even disc golf courses themselves are, more welcoming to, men than to women.
Jenna Weiner: Yeah, that's definitely a thing that I've noticed mostly anecdotally, but I think it's pretty much true across the board. of it is because courses are more often than not designed by men. And so if they're designed by men, the men are thinking, Hmm, what would I want to throw here? What would I want to do here? Um, and, and sometimes don't quite take into account, especially this does become more pronounced in disc golf than in ultimate, the arm speed, the, the, the distance that, men to be able to get over women. Generally speaking, generally speaking in particular, I will shout out Paige Pierce, in Katrina Allen, who are two of the top women the world who can both easily throw 450, 500 feet, which is right on up there with a lot of the, best men in terms of distance. So it's not that women can't throw that far, just generally women don't throw that far. And so then it's about thinking, okay, when I have this hole, that there's been so many times when I would just say for myself, I tend to throw my drivers on a good throw, about 300 to 325 feet. If I'm pushing it, I can go to 350. That's, that's on an amazing drive. So, but then I'll step up to a hole the hole is 375 feet. Or it's 320 feet, but it's slightly uphill. I can't reach those in a way that gets me a chance at a birdie versus a, someone with a slightly stronger arm or a guy generally speaking, who can throw, 350 to 375 or touching 400, maybe have as much of an issue being able to potentially reach it for birdie. And so then some of those holes it's like, okay, I can throw it to 70, 80 feet out. But it's not like I'm going to make that for birdie. So then it becomes a throw to where I can pitch it up, pitch it up then make the putt. And it becomes a really boring par three for me, while it could be maybe a challenging and more interesting, birdie opportunity for, for men. And so thinking about do you potentially design courses with a variety of distances? And so then you, you have to think more creatively. How do we make shorter holes? How do move more technical holes? How do we, maybe we don't force people to carry over water 250 feet. we forced them to carry it over water 150 feet, and then make a little technical shot into the woods after that. Those types of things can make courses more welcoming to women or at least make them more interesting. Also, I think I mentioned on that podcast, disc weights. Disc weights tend to be on the heavier side. Um, but oftentimes women tend to throw lighter discs because with a lighter disc, you can generally throw it further, all other things being equal. Manufacturers don't tend to manufacture lighter discs. So then women have fewer options when you're trying to look for a lighter weight disc. There's lots of different ways for, for this to be more approachable. And of course it courses designed in that are more approachable for women. And this is not that women not as good at disc golf or cannot be as good at disc golf, just especially for beginner women, making it easier for them to get into the game is really important because you're stuck at the low 10% participation of
Tulsa: Yeah.
Jenna Weiner: sport. You need to do things that are intentionally going to be inclusive and welcoming for women to feel like they can be a part of it. There's other larger culture issues, of misogyny that happens in disc golf. Similar things that we sometimes see in ultimate as well. But I think it tends to be a little bit more pronounced in the disc golf community on whole, super general on that. But those types of things, right then
Tulsa: Yeah
Jenna Weiner: the big woman. If you find the right plastic to throw courses you're are made really difficult for you. then the men are making sexist comments, like why would you want to play that sport?
Luisa: Totally, totally. That accessibility piece is so huge. I'm curious if any of the conversations that you just mentioned, like the Western ultimate league is having. Does it feel like any sorts of these accessibility or these considering conversations, is that happening at any level in, in disc golf?
Jenna Weiner: I think it is of, but it's slower starting. It feels like, or certainly later starting then I think some of the conversations that are happening in, ultimate, I know that, in the past year, year and a half or so, there's been more pushes for, diversity efforts. So, way the disc golf is structured, generally the professional disc golf association, the PDGA governs basically everything. And there's local clubs. But generally everything runs through the PDGA And so they for sanctioning events, that sort of thing. And so it's kind of up to the PGA in terms of what they want to do. And so I think they are having more conversations. And so there are conversations about does disc golf become less white, less male, dominated in general. And in terms of gender conversations, it's kind of happening. I think one thing that's interesting in disc golf is that two general divisions that people think of are the M divisions and the F divisions. However, those are not male and female or men and women. are female for the FPO, the female professionals FA1, FA2, which are the female amateurs, different tiers. And then on the M, the M actually actually stands for mixed. Doesn't stand for men's. So technically disc golf is basically open to anyone who wants to play, you just would have to play in the M potentially, which are majority men. And in terms of trans inclusion, the PDGA follows, I think pretty much the IOC, the national Olympic committee policy, which is based on hormone levels and blood tests. And there's a whole thing there about documentation and making sure that it's private and all that. I think I would love to see disc golf move towards a more inclusive model to move away from hormone requirements at all.
So, it's kind of about that question of who do you allow into the F divisions and does that look like? Do you need to regulate it? non-binary people welcome in the F divisions? Maybe, if they're not on hormones. Maybe not if they are on hormones in some way or another, or, or vice versa, what have you, so it's tricky. I think I'm hopeful that disc golf will be able to make some progress on gender inclusivity discussions. It's complicated as a lot of these things are.
Tulsa: Yeah.
So I'm curious about your job. Would you be willing to just describe a little bit what your job is and how you got to the current position you're in.
Jenna Weiner: So my full-time role is as the lead education and training coordinator for a program called Outlet. It's a program actually of a, slightly larger nonprofit organization called Adolescent Counseling Services based in Redwood City, on the peninsula in the Bay Area. focuses on supporting LGBTQIA+ youth in ways. We run social groups, we do trainings and education. In terms of what actually got me into it, I mean, it's, it's kind of a background and talking with different people, doing different presentation as a, as I've done with podcasts, with my TEDx talk with presentations and discussions with different organizations. My communication studies work was focused on, trans LGBTQ+ inclusion in sports, trans inclusion in sports. So that's how I got to my full-time job. I also am currently working, as a adidas ex athlete ally research fellow, I think is the full title on the Athletic Equality Index. Which we launched our website few weeks ago now, 5th. And that is focused on LGBTQ plus inclusion the NCAA D1 level. So I've been working on that research project, since April of 2020.
Luisa: that research work look like?
Jenna Weiner: That mostly means I look at athletic department websites to see what or practices they have for LGBTQ plus inclusion. then in the role as a fellow, I am the point person for currently six conferences around the country. If they have questions about the AEI, if they need to update their score, as well as working on to host webinars for those conferences and others, to share information about the AEI and how schools can improve their scores. So emails, looking through athletic department websites, going through lots of various Excel and Google sheet files to make sure that we have all of our data, numbers and scoring in the right place. And so the AEI is score that we assigned to D 1 schools, athletic departments out of a hundred with eight different metrics. And so it's a basically scoring rubric that we go through and say, okay, have you hit these different marks to get 25 points for having a non-discrimination policy is specific to the athletics department on the athletic department's website. you don't hit all those criteria, then you get docked points. And there's a bunch of different criteria, for policies and for practices and resources that we ask, athletic departments to have.
Tulsa: I've seen. I looked at it. I saw it come out. And, is this the first of its kind for focusing on trans inclusion?
Jenna Weiner: So the AI focuses generally on LGBTQ+ This is the third iteration of it. There was previous iterations in 2017 and 2019. However, those focused only on the Power Five schools, schools from the PAC 12, Big 10, Big 12, SEC, and ACC. And then this time we expanded out to all D one schools, which is over 300. So we basically went five fold in terms of the number of schools that we included in the AI. And this is the first time also that is not just a one-time year report. at any point, if schools want to update their scores, they are welcome to we
Tulsa: That's cool.
Jenna Weiner: website that is continually refreshing. And by refreshing, I mean, people tell us that they need their scores increased. We make the necessary changes on when their scores go up. So it's an evergreen site, so we're going to be continuing to work and engage with schools, from now through the end of the year, and hopefully going forward with continued iterations of the AEI. One of the parts of the AEI is on a trans inclusion policy. I want to say less than 10% of schools have their own unique trans inclusion policy. doesn't, just purely a copy of the trans inclusion policies, which are now outdated by a decade, uh, since those were released in 2011. So yeah, it's not ideal when you look at some of these scores, it can be pretty dispiriting, but there are probably, there's fair number of schools. I think we're up to eight or 10 schools that do have perfect one hundreds out of one hundreds their range of school sizes and around the country. So it's certainly not impossible for schools to achieve an a hundred, as long as they have the policies and practices in place.
Tulsa: I think it's really cool that Athlete Ally is working to create this like score card and not just assigning a score. And then just being like, here's your score, but working to working with the schools to help them figure out what things they can do to improve their score. I guess my question in all of this is with the schools that have hundreds: to me it kind of implies like, Oh, they've reached the end goal. there any bit for you where it's like, okay, they've, they've hit the max on our current scorecard, but there are still things that you think they could do better?
Jenna Weiner: Absolutely. There's, I don't think the schools that hit a hundred, or schools that will hit a hundred should rest on their laurels I know that we're certainly having discussions about continuing to push schools forward. In previous iterations of the AEI, the policies in particular didn't need to be public facing. And so schools could just say it out of the eye, hey, we have this policy. here it is. And never show it to the public. This year, in the 2020 to 2021 version, we've said, okay, these policies need to be accessible to the public in some form or another. And so that's a change. And I think also thinking about trying to, eventually move from focusing more on the policies and more on the practices, because it's
Tulsa: Yeah
Jenna Weiner: for someone to and paste a policy, put on their website and say, great, 25 points for the non-discrimination policy. That's a quarter of my points for this year's AEI. I'm done. to say, okay, well now maybe in the future, the, non-discrimination policy no longer worth 25 points, it's only worth 15 points. And now there are 10 more points for showing recurring staff trainings and recurring student trainings that are specifically focused on LGBTQ+ inclusion. And now those are weighted more heavily because currently the training components are only weighted at five points each for staff and for student athletes. And so in future iterations, we move away from the policies that schools that had a hundred. They no longer having a hundred until they implement more inclusive policy and practice or more focus more on and non-binary inclusion. Whatever the NCAA maybe comes up with next. trying to find ways to score schools that will push people in the direction of further inclusivity. The idea of the AEI is, is really at the end of day to not punish schools. And as to not say, you're really bad, look at you, we're going to shame you, but to try to encourage more inclusivity and focus on things that we we think really do make a difference to LGBTQ+ student athletes, staff, fans feel more welcome. So it's not just limited to internally student athletes, but we ask that schools have a fan code of conduct that says we explicitly do not allow homophobic and transphobic language all facilities, all athletic facilities on campus, in addition to allowing racist language and other discriminatory language. And that that's a good start for the fans. And then it's, again, it's a process of figuring out, okay, how do we take the next steps forward? And also I think with the schools with a hundred, my ask for them is always okay: what about the folks in your conference? have you help them, the folks in your conference achieve a score of 100, too. You're not just done if you have a score of a hundred. Hey, University of Arizona. Great. You all have an a hundred now help other schools in the PAC 12, that's really the goal.
Luisa: So does Athlete Ally actually help, foster some of those communication channels between between schools?
Jenna Weiner: We we certainly try. We invited, representatives from schools, from four different to attend, and to see who else was there and to hear about what the AEI And then we also did breakout rooms there where representatives from different conferences, attended and could talk to each other and say, okay, well, Northern Arizona, y'all have a bunch of folks here. That's a really great, let's have you talk to the folks from Idaho State or Montana State are maybe having a little bit more trouble getting more of their folks on board and if you all can work together in association with the conference office as well.
Because if we can, we'd love for the Big Sky or the Mountain West Conference offices to work their institutions to say, okay, across the entire conference, every single institution a fan code of conduct that does not allow for homophobic or transphobic language. If we can make the happen. departments are notorious for having way too much going on for, being very busy people. And so it's sometimes tough to get folks on the line, but do our best.
Luisa: Cool. I really love the piece that, the score isn't about punishing a school at the end of the day, but it's literally an invitation, maybe a little bit sterner than an invitation to consider, reflect, figure out what that next step is for you to go back to what, you know, some of the stuff we had talked about earlier. I think that's really awesome.
Jenna Weiner: Yeah. And also just about celebrating when schools are doing work, sometimes we talk to schools and they're like, we're doing this work. We're doing trainings, we're collaborating with our, on campus LGBTQ+ center. And we're like, great. Show us, tell know, put out a press release that that's saying that you're doing this stuff so that we can give you credit the work that you're already doing. We want to just know more, we want to encourage schools to share their scores. And also I'm on a podcast, I'm going to plug that if you're an alum of a university, I encourage you to check out the Athletic Equality Index. aei.athleteally.org. Check out your alma mater's score. And if you aren't satisfied with where their score is that reach out to them, reach out to your alma maters athletic tomorrow and say, Hey, you know, as an alum, I'd really like to see the score improve. So any listeners out there really encourage folks to reach out to help us because Athlete Ally, the crew that we have, the, the fellows, we can only kind of do so much sometimes and often call or an email from an alum can make a really big difference. So encourage folks to check that out.
Tulsa: Yeah, that's awesome. Thank you for plugging that. I think it's a great action item for people to have some concrete thing they can do. So in all of your work, job work, in this fellowship. You're doing a lot of advocacy work. And I know you wrote a Twitter thread for Trans Day of Visibility about how being visible and doing all of this work is hard and tiring. And there anything that you want to talk about around that or sharing what that experience is like?
Jenna Weiner: Yeah, I, yeah, I know exactly what you're about. I think the thing that is challenging for me sometimes is that there is a lot of stuff going on in the world. A lot of love, hate, law, harm going on in the world right now in so many different ways. So many different ways we're talking on, was it the, uh, 21st of April? The day after the end of the Derek Chauvin trial. And the day after a young black girl was murdered in Columbus by police. And we're also talking in the middle of wave of anti-trans bills across the country and state after state after state, some plus state legislatures have put forward anti-trans bills, some focused on healthcare, some focused on sports, some focused on both. And it is, it's really hard sometimes to feel as someone who's to do a lot of good work, I hope, in a lot of these spaces to feel like, can I help more? like I'm not doing enough because there's just so much hurt. There's so much harm out in the world right now. And it's, it's hard to feel like I can do everything. I want to do everything. I have been historically fairly active on Twitter and that's just not been the case the past six months because I've been doing life stuff. I just recently moved. I've been trying to figure out job things, I just don't feel like I have the capacity to then go on Twitter and say, Hey, you all should care about this. let me just repeat for you what these other advocates and activists are saying that, Hey folks, in these different states, pay attention to your state legislatures. happy to retweet. I don't know if I have the energy to go state after state, after state day after day to go on Twitter and say, Hey, this is a thing because part of it is that I'm already in different spaces in places where we're talking my work about what happens with our LGBTQ plus youth, how are they feeling, trying to grow up in the face of all of these anti-trans bills? What happens when I'm working with Athlete Ally, and sometimes I am the only trans voice in the room being like, Hey, we need to think critically about this. Athlete Ally is doing great, great work. And also it's hard work to talk to athletic departments who maybe aren't interested in being LGBTQ+ inclusive, have to teach them again and again about why this is important with the Western Ultimate League again, great people doing great work, trans voice in the room being like, Hey, let's think critically about who we're including in our league and what language we're using for it. All of that takes time and energy. And I try to put a lot of thought into the work that I do, and it's just, tricky sometimes to feel like there's always something more that I want to do to help with some of the hurt in the world.
And I can't always, or don't feel like I the capacity. Like I'm trying to live life as a person in the world, too. That's a lot of things. Somebody we talk about activists and advocates in the world who are doing this work and were like, they're doing amazing things, look at them as an amazing person. Well, I appreciate that and all, but like, I'm also just trying to live my life here and that can be a lot in the middle of a pandemic and trying to move and and all of those different things that life throws at us. So I think part of that too, is just a recognition that activists and the people that we interact with are, are, people are going through a lot. We are all through a lot, especially folks who are more marginalized in different ways. The trans folks in people's lives, the black people in people's lives. Every everyone in everyone's lives. But, those folks in particular. And so I guess if anything, I don't know a plug to check in on folks, and not like check in just to be like, hi, I'm thinking of you, but like earnestly check in with the people you care about. Don't just message every black person you know to say I am sorry for the Derek Chauvin trial or don't message every trans person you know saying, I'm sorry for all the anti-trans, bills, like, check in on them. Legitimately support them with money, with food, with your time, and then be an ally in whatever way that looks like. That, was a long-winded answer. But that that's sort of the feeling of being visible is important. And I wouldn't trade doing this work. Like it's worthy work, it's necessary work wouldn't trade doing it. But it's hard work. And I think we should be cognizant of that. And recognize when there's a lot of going on in the world, we have to be thoughtful about how that affects people on the real human level.
Tulsa: Thank you for sharing those thoughts and thank you for all of the work.
Luisa: Yeah, that was incredibly well said. Jenna.
Jenna Weiner: I try.
Tulsa: think about it a lot. Probably.
Jenna Weiner: And it's just something where it's my life. And it's something where I suddenly had this thought of, like, it wasn't a long ago when I just started transitioning. I'm coming up pretty quickly here on five years of transitioning. I first really put the pieces together that I was trans in May of 2016. I started hormones at the end of June of 2016. I wrote an article in Skyd, which I am still shocked that I did that, over four years ago, that article came out and basically changed my life. Not even basically, it did change my life. And it's those types of things where it's to reflect back and how much has happened, how much has changed and how much work still needs to be done. So yeah, are some of the thoughts where, sometimes I feel like I'm juggling and not somehow simultaneously doing way too much and not doing enough at the same time.
Tulsa: A good old both/and.
Jenna Weiner: Yeah, always.
Tulsa: Yeah.
Luisa: So with all of that stuff, that's kind of behind you, what's next for you?
Jenna Weiner: That is a very good question. I think really as has been my goal for a long time now will continue to be my goal is to try and make the world a better place for trans people and trans and non binary people in general. What that looks like exactly, I'm not sure. I'm definitely gonna continue with the work that I'm doing with LGBTQ+ youth for time being. I think I would really like to eventually, get involved in some, maybe it's hard to say larger scale advocacy, but I try to be involved on one more national level, ideally, and try to push policies and understandings forward, whether it's in sports or more generally. And in terms of athletics, we'll see what happens with the 2021 ultimate season. I say for any folks who are out there listening in whatever way, shape or form now, or in the future, this will not be the last you hear of me. I will continue to be involved and engaged in one form or another.
Tulsa: Awesome. The second part of that question is what do you hope is next for the ultimate community?
Jenna Weiner: I'm going to give what maybe is a stock answer at this point, but that ultimate deals with its racial biases and the racial reckoning, and to consider what it means to preach that we on the Spirit of the Game, when what does that even mean and how, how do we actually shape what spirit means in our sport? I will say in a slight different way, I've been very impressed, amazed at how far the ultimate community, certainly USA Ultimate has come in again, the past four years from when came out and they had a half page trans inclusion policy that required hormones, to now having no hormone requirements whatsoever for any level of competition. Now, there's more to be done in terms of considering race, in terms of considering class and, and figuring out what it looks like to both make our sport more accessible, and also what it looks like to maybe have ultimate look a little bit differently, coming from a league perspective of, know, club has been the way to go for a long time. And the AUDL has an example of professional ultimate. What would it look like to do that differently? would professional ultimate actually like from the perspective of the Western Ultimate League? I think I'm really interested and engaged in that work and really hoping to help push that league forward.
Luisa: What do you hope is next for disc golf community?
Jenna Weiner: Disc golf needs to work on gender inclusivity. It needs to work to be less misogynistic across the board. It needs to be more thoughtful about how it includes players in general. Women and non binary players, but players in general, and just continue to have conversations and be very thoughtful about what it looks like too, especially coming on the heels of 2020 into 2021 where the sport has exploded. What does it mean to create a community where all people who have discovered this sport and will continue to discover the sport feel actually welcome, and that it doesn't continue to be a 90 10 percentage in terms of men to women. I think disc golf really needs to work on that and I think has an opportunity, especially coming off the heels of, know there are quite a few new women who've been playing in the last year and a half. Really trying to be thoughtful about what that means going forward to keep those folks in the game, moving forward.
Tulsa: I know we've, talked and you've shared a bunch of great messages already. any specific message you want to share with the ultimate community to wrap up?
Jenna Weiner: don't know if there's any thing in particular that I want to mention that I haven't already mentioned besides Black Lives Matter, It bears repeating every single time. I know, just coming from the mouth of a white person on a podcast doesn't mean very much, but like, do it. Black Lives Matter, support it with your money, support abolition. That's the only way forward when even after the end of a long trial, that ends in some small measure of accountability, there still is stolen murders of black people by police on a very regular basis.
Tulsa: Okay. So our game is called 10 Second Stall, we have a bunch of questions that we'll ask you. And you'll have 10 seconds from the time that we start the question when you give your answer.
And if you don't answer within 10 seconds, we'll say stall. Okay. Lu , do you want to start?
Luisa: Uh, yeah, I'll start.
What teammate do you want on the line with you? Your all-time teammate.
Jenna Weiner: Uh, I will take Morgan Greenwood because she was one of the best women players I've ever played with and or against.
Tulsa: What is your most used emoji?
Jenna Weiner: My most used emoji is probably one of the hearts because it's from when my girlfriend and I have texted each other when we have been apart during the pandemic.
Tulsa: sweet.
Luisa: Who is the hardest matchup you've ever had guarding or being guarded
Jenna Weiner: I want to say Morgan again, but that's cheating. I will say, Gina Schumacher, because she is very fast and lanky and hard to guard in general.
Tulsa: What's your favorite tournament location?
Jenna Weiner: a good one. I would probably go with the Santa Cruz cliffs, where, Sean Moran is held every year. It's a college tournament for those who are unaware, you can see the whole ocean. It's amazing.
Tulsa: If you can only have one throw, what throw do you pick?
Jenna Weiner: It's a backhand. and then my backhand huck is my go-to
Luisa: Favorite play you've ever made.
Jenna Weiner: play I've ever made. This is uh, uh, probably a point block against Classy and then running down the other way to get the huck for a score.
Tulsa: That's sick.
book, podcast, or TV show recommendation.
Jenna Weiner: Very Random Encounters. It's an actual play podcast where it's random. It's also very clear, and they have pretty short seasons and short episodes.
Tulsa: You had that ready.
Jenna Weiner: cause it comes up sometimes people as
Tulsa: Okay.
Jenna Weiner: recommendations and I love VRE and always want to recommend them.
Tulsa: Okay, awesome. I'll have to check them out. What's the best compliment you've received.
Jenna Weiner: This is a really good question. Uh that's that's it's, it's a it's uh, why am I blanking? I've received so many good compliments I can't answer.
Fair. That is a, that's a, uh, stall nine huck right there. Huck and hope.
someone you're grateful for.
I'm going to tag up one of my best friends, Leaf. He's a very, very good disc golfer Leaf Swenson , cause he and I chat all the time and I've learned a lot about disc golf from him when we've played together.
Luisa: Favorite ultimate jersey.
Jenna Weiner: Ooh, my favorite ultimate jersey. Is this in general or one that I have.
Tulsa: be either.
Jenna Weiner: Oh.
My favorite jersey that I have, is, okay, I'm going to give two answers. One, one is my The Future is Non- binary jersey that I helped, uh, work with VC to design. And in terms appearance, I also tag a VC. I have one of their cherry blossom jerseys that my brother gave to me that is really great. And I wear it pretty much any time I go a disc golf tournament.
Tulsa: And great because VC, is one of our sponsors.
Luisa: Good plug
Jenna Weiner: Perfect
Tulsa: Extra ad
Luisa: That's 10 Second Stall!
Jenna Weiner: Okay.
Tulsa: You did great.
Jenna Weiner: I, mostly.
Luisa: stall out.
Jenna Weiner: Okay.
Tulsa: good. Yeah.
Luisa: Cool.
Jenna Weiner: All right, well, this is, this was great. Thanks, y'all for having me. talking with the both of you.
Luisa: Yeah. Thank you for coming on the show, Jenna. I both learned a lot and was inspired to do a lot of things, including play frisbee and maybe try disc Who knows.
Tulsa: Yeah. Yeah. Thank you very much for spending your time and talking with us.
Luisa: Thanks for listening. And we'll see you next time. If you like the podcast and want to support us, here are a few things that you can do.
Tulsa: You can follow us on Instagram and Facebook at Share the Air Podcast and on Twitter at sharetheairpod.
Luisa: You can also rate and review us, and most importantly, subscribe to our podcasts wherever you listen.
Tulsa: Lastly, if you want to get in touch with us, you can email us at team@sharetheairpodcast.com. We'd love to hear from you.
Luisa: Thanks so much for listening.
Tulsa: Share the Air is recorded and edited by Tulsa Douglas and Luisa Neves. It is planned and produced by Tulsa Douglas, Luisa Neves and Tim Bobrowski.
Luisa: Share the Air's music is by Grey Devlin and Christopher Hernandez. Finally, thanks again to our sponsors, NUTC and VC Ultimate.